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Seekers of the Red Mist
(Varmint Hunting Discussion)

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	1 Classified Ads Coffee Events (7/0/0) (1 folders) Gear (60/0/0) Handloading (537/0/0) (2 folders) Humor Hunting wheels (20/0/0) Long guns (435/0/0) (1 folders) Misc (84/0/0) (3 folders) MostDangerous (29/0/0)	Optics (110/0/0) (2 folders) Photo Album (36/0/0) Politics (229/0/0) Predators (177/0/0) Short guns (72/0/0) species-specific varmints (73/0/0) (2 folders) Technology (13/0/0) Wildcat Rounds (111/0/0) (1 folders) ~FAQ ~Suggestion Box (44/0/0)

barrel wear

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Hi I'm looking to pick up a varmint rifle for Gophers and Coyotes but can't decide on a caliber... I'm thinking of either a .223 or a Ruger 209. My question is barrel wear. What calber is the easyest on throat erosion given loads for both are kept mild? Say you have two with 1500 rounds through both, which would show more wear?

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As I understand it, the Ruger 209 is based on the .223 Rem case.
All else being equal, the smaller bore will wear faster.

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Get either one in an older Savage rifle and just swap out barrels when needed. It's a piece of cake and not very expensive at all. Midway has Shilen barrels for Savages at around $275.00 US

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An aspect to consider is availability and cost of ammo should you ever run-out and may be several hundred miles from ur bench.

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Excellent point Red Dog. Also, what is the overall cost difference between the two cartridges?

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Reloading cost or factory ammo cost?

The 223 will have a much wider variety of bullets available for reloading.
The 223 will also have once-fired brass widely available.

Once you have the brass in hand, reloading costs would be the same.
Factory ammo? I do not know... Availability of the 20-cal would be your biggest issue.

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A friend obtained a .204 Ruger several years ago because he liked the thumb-hole stock...needless to say, once the newness wore off, he returned to his .223 Rem. My opinion is that the biggest bang for ur buck is handily won by the .223 Rem. Our collective experiences, albeit limited and admittedly not thorough, reached the conclusion that the twenty cal could not out-perform the twenty-two. Again, to reiterate, we only utilized factory ammo and did not do an extended in-depth analysis.

I do know that in Alta, the cost of the Ruger factory ammo is very high and not always available. It was claimed that one could watch the "bullet trace" through good optics with the Ruger, but I personally did not experience that phenomenon. Although he still has that particular rifle, he has not shot it for several years.

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Thanks Guys,
Just as I thought and Red Dog clinched it for me, the 223 is a better round for reloading and availability of components.
Hoghntr made a good suggestion in that I can find a replacement barrel for my Savage. I called Western Gun Parts in Edmonton and was told by them that I wouldn't be able to purchase a new barrel for my Savage.
I got in touch with Savage and they told me that they don't sell barrels to the general public for liability reasons. But now that Hoghntr mentioned Midway, I'll definately give them a shout. I figure why buy a new rifle when all I need to do is replace the barrel with a different caliber? Cheaper that way....

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I just got off the Shilen website and I can get a chrom moly varmint barrel in 223 rem for $305.00(US) I'll put this on my wish list and see what happens...

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I have to admit that my (home made) custom .223 is probably my ugliest and most treasured rifle. I had a gunsmith do the barrel, but I did the stock myself.

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I just realized that I would have to get a new bolt, the case head dimensions are different between the .308 and the .223 so I maybe should go with a cartridge that has the same case size like the .243... Havoc as far as I'm concerned, looks shouldn't matter as long as you get tight groups.

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I agree with you. I think I would stick with the .308 family of cartridges.

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Would you need an entire bolt or just a bolt face Trooper? Bolt faces are only about $8 US. The 308 bolt is probably too short for a .223 conversion.

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As u r aware, I tried to get after-market bbl from US for over yr w/no results. I was also intouch with Midway for that purpose...again to no avail. I doubt bbls shall be any easier to obt from s of the 49th. There are several good bbl makers in Alta. .243 Win good for deer too, but be careful of excess blood damage. There's a guy here in BC that uses .243 for Grizz and as far as I've heard, he's still alive. Of course there's always some guy wanting to hunt Grizz with long bow from a ground blind; to date, haven't heard of any successful survivors.

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I forgot about availability of these types of things in the Great White North. That must really suck. Availability isn't a problem here. Actually there's probably too many things available to buy. My big purchases will be on hold for a while as I just bought a 2011 Camaro SS/RS. You should have seen the look on the salesman's face when I told him I was thinking of getting the sunroof option so my bipod wouldn't scratch the roof.

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I share ur wistfulness as currently I am trying to decide between a class C RV or a Corvette... up here about the same amt of money! I am leaning toward the famous Canadian Sub Killer from WWII! Must be getting old, or a new phenomenon called a "Late Life Crisis". For some u/k reason, I have this vision of lashing my rifle case somewhere on the Vette and heading to Cowboy Country with intent to derail some pesky hole-diggers.

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RD. There is a fella over in Spruce Grove that caters to rifle building supplies snd is quite reasonable. You can check out Joe's web site here.
http://www.rpsinternational.com/newsite.html

http://www.rpsinternational.com/newsite.html

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Shilen makes drop in barrels for savage, all you need is a wrench. You can google "savage barrel switch" or like thtat for info. I got a wrench from Midway for 30 bucks. Shilen barrels are alittle over 300 US.

HM

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That's what I did when I built my .260 from a .22-250. Midway had the drop in barrel from Shilen already threaded. A friend had a wrench and headspace gauge and we had it on in 15mins. It actually took longer to get the old barrel free than to install the new one. All one needs is the said Savage barrel nut wrench, proper headspace/no go gauge, bolt face if necessary, and a barrel vise. It's so easy, a mechanically inclined caveman could do it!

SRM on mobile devices

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Hey, folks. One of the things I've wanted to do for a long time is make the RE mobile friendly. I recently made some changes that have improved mobile usability. If you have a smartphone (or iPad or whatever), I would appreciate testers and reports. Thanks!

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I'll have to give it a try on my Android.

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Works ok for me

Barnes Varmint Grenades

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Fellow hunters and shooters -- has anyone found a good load for the .224" 36gr. and 6mm 62gr. Barnes Varmint grenades for a .223 Rem., .22-250 Rem. and the .243 Win? I have tried maybe 10 different loads and can't seem to get one that will shoot as well as the old fashioned Hornady .224" 55gr. s.p. w/c and Nosler 6mm 70 gr. ballistic tip. It is frustrating to me. I have shot a few chizzlers with the .224" 36 gr. bullets with a true "RED MIST" effect with my .223 Rem. heavy barrel. 70% of the time I miss with Varmint Grenades though. I can connect about 85% of the time with the old-timer projectiles but these Varmint Grenades are hard to get to shoot. I have tried maybe 7 different powders and various seating lengths from .006 off the lands to .050 off the lands without luck. If anyone has got them to shoot let me know. <accuracysports@yahoo.com>

TAKE NO PRISONERS

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The smallest caliber to date I used was the .243. I shot a few 70 gn sxsp through that barrel with great accuracy but sierras were probably the most accurate with my Ruger M77.

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I personally have not used them as I find Nosler BT to be excellent. I have nothing against them at all, I simply have something that works so I haven't had need to try them. Anyhow I have noted in several areas where people have had issues with accuracy of the Varmint Grenades. The performance is excellent from what I can tell but I think hitting the sweet spot load is harder. Even if someone has a good load I'd bet given the "finickyness" aspect I'd bet it wouldn't do you any good. I hate to say it but I think you will end up needing to work up more loads to try. I have a similar issue with my 204 Ruger. It just wont group no matter what I do and I haven't had time to do much with it. Anyway, good luck.

stock

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Red dog, did you get in touch with Sarge in Colorado for your stock?

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I haven't heard anything from Sarge via email. Did you hear that he got me a Choate? I am just loading up to head to Alta to burn off the rest of my 662 rds of .308 plus about a thousand of .223. My friend in Alta is seriously thinking about acquiring a .338 Lapua Mag (but I think he is taking this long range bombardment of BPUTS too seriously...what can I say, he's ex Air Force Capt!)

It's been dryest year since 1929 in Britain and I know where all their rain has gone. We are in serious danger of losing our "Desert" status as to end of June our rainfall is 222% above average.

It's been over a year since attempting to acquire another Choate and my .260 Project is on hold and maybe I'll burn up my .308 barrel this year and that'll be the impetus to rebarrel and retool the action. Cheers ...on Happy Canuck Day.

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Hi Red Dog,
Are you still interested in finding a choate for a savage mod 10?
I'm going to try to contact sarge if you like, I'll send you his email if you don't have it already.

Gopher Ridge

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I went out with a good friend of mine last week and found a hillside lousy with gophers! RedDog, you were right about central Alberta. I was making some decent hits at 150 meters with my Ruger 1022. These critters appeared never to have been hunted or they were just plain stupid. Two bricks of .22 ammo used by me, I don't know How much ammo Ed used.

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I may be heading eastward within week on some minor business. Trying to squeeze in enough time to load up some Varmint Grenades I got my paws onto (50gr 224s) but I have some skepticism that they'll carry accuracy out much beyond 200 y/m...but that remains to be seen.

Talked to my Buddy in Alta this AM circa 05:30 and he indicates just stopped pouring there. BPUT Babies are above ground now but grass is green and tall.

Locally the marmot youngsters learned quickly, when an older one I've named Mama Cass whistles, to head for cover.

The so-called desert-region I live in is lush and green now. Reminds me of when I used to live in Snafouver!

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We went back there last weekend and fired off another brick of federal. works great in my 1022. Those gophers sure are a blast to whack. Here's a question a friend says that Gophers and richardson's ground squirrel are not the same animal. what's the difference?

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One is a ground squirrel, the other is a gopher.

Thank you... thank you, I'll be here all week

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On further investigation, I found out that there are many varieties of these critters that look similar. For my purposes, they all are furry little targets!

New Server ONLINE!

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Woot! Let me know if you have problems with anything.

Thanks.

As Suspected

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Just back from Alta. Several things learned, Subaru 4WHDR does not cut-it on Alta horse ranch and the couple of hundred "Grenades" I loaded did not perform at distance. In fairness, the 50 grainer did manage to deflate a badger at 292 Yards and it did become fairly windy to the extent that the .308 did not fare much better. The next day when reverting to our Nosl B/Ts, the kill-ratio virtually quadrupled if not quintupled.

Tornado warnings and rain comparative to Asian monsoons terminated the fun. Even the Stampede in Calgary is somewhat soggier this year.

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I have noticed that Nosler 50gn BTs in a 223 don't have much steam left at 350 yards. They do the job on PDs, just no air time like you get at 200-250 yards.

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Longest shots we have recorded are around 320Y with both 50s & 55s. Several yrs ago did up some 69 Sie HPBT Matchkings, but drop from muzzle is around 7.5 feet @ 600Y. Even those heavier projectiles do not buck wind well. If my memory is correct, even a very mild breeze caused windage correction of more than 21 inches. I still retain some of those what I call Match Grade rounds, but hesitate to dispose of them as they took me so long to load.

For our purposes, I consider our rifles 300M max and that is on a very calm day. Where we shoot coupled with the time of year when grass provides a natural blind, shots beyond 350 are a rarity. That is why the .308 accompanies us.

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I've experienced the same results in my .22-250 with the 50gr. B-Tips. The BC is just too low for them to do well in the wind I think. That's why I love the 6.5mm bullets. A 140gr. Cust. Comp. has a BC of .520

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Not that its much better but I stick with the 55gr B-Tips in my 250. I also prefer Nosler over Hornady (thought I have lots of both). They are boat tail with the corresponding flight advantage and they load somewhat easier. The base is also solid copper so there is one piece that stays intact, which is interesting but not likely to add anything to performance. I'm looking to build a long range rifle and am considering a 6.5 or similar. I hope to go after some larger varmints with this one.

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We've tried Hornady's but for some inexplicable reason, our Savages prefer the Noslers.
I was in process of building a .260 Remington for my host in Alberta, however he seems to have his mind made up for a new Savage in .338 Lapua Magnum. All I can do is shake my head as he is very recoil shy. He adamantly claims the included brake reduces felt recoil to that of a light .308.
We used to have to qualify with a Sporter weight .308 Win and following a course of fire of forty rounds, it was not uncommon for several of my men to have bruised shoulders as just uniform shirts were allowed to be worn.
My host assumes that I shall do the reloading for him as well. In the final analysis, the fault may be my own as I am the one that exposed him to shooting a .338 LM (Heavy 36 pound with after-market brake) several years ago and that rifle's recoil was extremely light.
What someone needs to invent is a portable shooting platform about 15/20 foot deck. Something one could disassemble and throw in the back of a p/u within five minutes. For 2% of ur gross and a couple of prototypes, you may have this idea!

Expect some outages

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I'm migrating to a new server. "Doorway" has served me well, but it's old (and I mean REALLY old) and it costs me $200/mo. to keep online. I'm migrating to a different, less expensive solution.

If I'm hosting your email, you'll want may loose some messages. If your email is being forwarded to another account, it should all get there -- but who knows?

I expect a hick-up or two along the way. You should, too.

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Wow, I didn't realize it costs you that much to keep this forum going. Thanks for all you do to maintain it Havoc!

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"you'll want may loose some messages"... apparently, I can't proofread.

free varmit shooting

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Hello, I live in northern Montana and have a friend who has a terrible ground squirrel infestation problem. He owns a farm that is being overrun with Richardson ground squirrels.For those of you who are not familiar with Richardson ground squirrels,they look like a smaller version of prairie dogs (approx. 1 lb and 9 inches high) They are not particularly smart and gunfire does not seem to much bother them.
There are hundreds if not thousands of them on his farm. What is worse, is on the surrounding farms there are countless thousands of them. The farmers want them extinct.A lot of people shoot them with .22s but personally I prefer 22 hornets hmr 17s, .223s and 22-250s.There is a massive network of "section"roads where you can drive around either in a pickup truck or atv and shoot the bejesus out of them. Its sort of considered a public service.Locally the ground squirrels are known as "gophers". With few exceptions there are no buildings, houses, tractors or people to impede high velocity shooting. I did not shoot as many gophers last year as many others that live around here but just to give you some idea I burned more than 7 pounds of gunpowder. Most of that was in a 223, 14 grains at a time.
The gophers have their babies the second or third week in May and are best to shoot from the first of April till the end of June.Babies are perfectly fine to shoot except they present a smaller target.No state license or permit is required for ground squirrels. The only rule is that no badger shooting is allowed on his farm because of their role as an alpha predator to gophers.If interested in a free live fire, unlimited caliber restriction, no permit, no limit varmit shoot, email Hal (farmer) at rockcoulee@havre.mt.net
(personally I think there are few things in life more fun than shooting gophers until your trigger finger blisters, good luck)

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Damn, I wish I lived closer to Big Sky Country. Sounds like a true varmint hunter's paradise!

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Nice - thank you for the report!

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Man! Montana is the place to be!! I don't think I've seen a population like that up here. We're starting to see the odd Gopher laying on the side of the hiway squished and not shot!!

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Attn Trooper trvl south toward Pine Lake (where they had quite a few people killed in tornado a few years back). It's SE of Dead Rear in central Alta. Found patch last year where land owner did not even mind me using .308Win. He has close to a full section he sometimes uses as a pasture. Hint, pack extra sack of suds as a token or ur appreciation and at least thousand rds.

I did not do too much recce work before finding this place and all it took was the gumption to knock on the door. You're an Albertan, as I am originally, you know the drill. Just don't have any Ignatieff supporter bumper stickers on ur truck!

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Thanks Red Dog,
I'm heading down that way this weekend for a gopher hunt with Our church Padre
Who loves hunting critters!

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Gopher Greaser, I sent an e-mail to "rockcoulee@havre.mt.net and it bounced back as "undeliverable". I live in Victor, MT and it would be an easy drive for me to go up to Havre. Would you have a different e-mail address or maybe this one need correcting? If you need it, my e-mail address is drh29@bitterroot.com
Thanks,
Dave

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Dave,
Hal is still begging for shooters!He says he wants every single of his millions of gophers extincticated. I did screw up his email adress, try this one, rockcoulee@havremt.net hopefully that will work better for you.

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GG, I grew up near Great Falls. Had the same issue on occasion on our place and nearby ranches. You can see the results in the photo album. I have to agree, I'm most at peace when I'm out in the middle of some field by myself controlling the gopher populations. I'd be interested in shooting there myself since a couple local ranches sold land and now my favorite hunting grounds are surrounded by clueless ex-city dwellers, no offense to city people, just the clueless ones (for instance I was shooting for a couple hours in an area where I had houses to my back but everything for the next couple miles was open fields when clueless horseback girl just walks across my line of fire. She was from the houses behind me, and given the bark of my 250 there was no doubt she knew exactly where I was. ).
I think the guy ought to reconsider his no badger policy though since they tend to cause more damage than that of the gophers they eat. We broke an axle on our swather from hitting a badger hole. But to each his own I guess.
Thanks for the invite, if I could pull it off I'd be the first one in the field. Given the area I presume wind is sometimes an issue and the weather changes fast around there. I'd advise people that make the trip to be prepared. Theres nothing like being out in a field somewhere only to have a spring squall liquify some montana gumbo and make your trip out an adventure.

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Hello Gopher greaser, sent a note to Hal, noticed the reply to you from Dave in Victor, hope I don't get a bounce I would really love to Vaporize some Gophers!
I am in Great Falls, so you know a Hop, Skip, and Blam! I am there.
Keep me posted, at rykky47@bresnan.net.
HunterRyk

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hunter ryk,
Come on down! Bring massive munitions!email Hal at rockcoulee@havremt.net he will give you directions and probably a map.

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I ran into a farm like this several years ago near Saratoga, Wy. The ground appeared to crawl with them! A shooters paradise. And a .22 or .22 Mag was more than sufficient for these tiny critters. I'll be there!

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I forgot to mention that if anyone is going up there then it may be an interesting time to drop by Calhoon bullets (http://www.jamescalhoon.com/). He's been known to have people try out his wildcat rounds. Should be interesting in any case.

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For what its worth........
James Calhoon is a buddy of mine and he is an absolute authority on varmit guns and wildcat calibers.If you come from Great falls to Havre his shop is right along the highway and he will give you a "bullet factory tour" as well as show you some truely sweet varmit guns he manufactures there. He is a super friendly good guy not to mention the best shot I have ever met. Stop and say hi, you won't regret it

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Hey Gopher Greaser, I heard you were looking for gophers in the mud??? have they been out much?

I'm watching the forecast and will be heading that way when it is a little warmer and dry.

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I just got back and had a great time! I shot as many gophers as I could, -there are plenty. Weather was great. I bought a .19 Badger from Jim and really like it. I used to feel like I was wasting ammo at 200+ yds. -not any more!

Hal knows some really good areas, and some of his land had lots.

I enjoyed my trip to Havre!

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Neil,
Sorry I missed you, I had to get ready for a big catfish-walleye fishing fandango.
Here each fisherman is allowed to use six set lines with six hooks on each one. There are about 30 of us that go each year and we use 500 dozen minnows.Yeah we do catch a few (hundred)
Anyway, I went to Hal's today and almost ran out of ammo.Sorry to report you left a large number of survivors.I think perhaps you may have to return and finish the job..............

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I'm going in a couple weeks. Will my .22 l.r. work or will I need the .22 WMR? I use the WMR on prairie dogs regularly but have a .223 Win. on hand. What's gonna work best? Thanks

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My son and I shot a bunch of gophers in Wyoming a couple of years ago. We had 22 l.r.'s, AR's, 22-250's and a 6mm. We shot maybe 100 rounds in the centerfires. We shot 1500 rounds of 22 l.r. The 22 is tons of fun. Plenty or energy for clean kills out to 100 yards. And relatively cheap to shoot! Take the 22 and don't look back. By the way, we had no problem with targets in range. Like was said above, these guys aren't the brightest bulbs in the box. They just line up and wait their turn.

Paul

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I think you may often prefer the .22 WMR up there, but the .22 will be fine.

On my first day I had both my .17HMR and .22 on my ATV rack and used the .17HMR three shots to one over the.22. After that I had my .19 Calhoon Badger and .17HMR in the rack and used the centerfire 2 to 1 over the .17.

If you have a .22 handgun there will probably be several opportunities at +/- 10 or 15yds. I regret I wasn't better prepared. You may want to dial in your .22 handgun at this distance.

I would take all three and have the .223 and the .22WMR in my rack, .22 handgun ready also.

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Wow - that sounds awesome. I just tried the email address to get some info and it bounced back. Now I see a modified email address further down in the forum here. I sent the same message to that address. I've been to South Dakota years ago and southern Montana. Wanted to see what it would take to make it a reality with some facts from the source of the "invaders". Take care..

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Havre is about 40 miles from Hal's land. many locals also hunt there or near there. Havre is a great town to base out of- clean,friendly and affordable. I stayed at the Circle Motel ($38 night, single) and ate a couple of times at "Andys" steak, drinks, dessert etc. $32+ tip -very good food and a great value. Lots of gophes (ground squirrels) to shoot. I diddn't see anyone else hunting when I was there.

Texas Panhandle Varmints

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I just bought a new rem r15, and have yet to find any varmint to test it on. I was wondering if anyone has had any luck with coyotes, prairie dogs, hogs etc. around Amarillo, TX. I was looking into hunting the national grasslands in the area... any suggestions? I was wondering where I could do it for free, or maybe just a regular license. I remember just about 10 years ago having free access to such pest, now it seems it costs an arm or leg to do some pest control.

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New Mexico offers varmint hunting for non-residents for the price of a small game license. Rabbit, coyote, prairie dog, etc., can all be hunted on the small game license. Also, Montana and Wyoming offers prairie dog hunting to non-resident hunters without a license at all! Go for it!. And good luck! The Rita Blanca Nat'l Grasslands in the Northern panhandle has some areas of prairie dogs. I was there a few weeks ago. The varmints were wary and we couldn't figure out why. No other sign of earlier hunters but the wind was blowing pretty still and the pups were not in evidence. But the animals could be seen, but only from outside shooting distances (at least for our equipment).

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