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Seekers of the Red Mist
(Varmint Hunting Discussion)

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30-06, 55 grain

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I see that there is a Remington round with a sabot 55 grain round. It sounds like this may be a cheap way to get a 220 swift performance from the 30-06 rifle. Does anyone have any experience with this round??

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I haven't seen them for a while, but remington used to sell "accelerators" in 30-06 and .308. speed was great, but accuacy was dismal, at best. I tried some on rock chucks ranging from 100 to 300 yards, inside 200 you could get good body shots, any farther & just hitting them was tough.
It could have been that my rifle just didn't like them, never tried them in anything else.
Groups at 100 yd were very inconsistent, some in the 2" range most in the 3" range, not my idea of varmint accuracy.
I didn't own a cronograph at the time so I don't know what the true vel. was.
As far as swift performance, thats funny, maybe close in velocity, but the swift is a very accurate cartriage, my box stock ruger with factory ammo shoots 3/8" @ 100 or less even when the bbl. starts to warm up.

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That is kind of what I was expecting. It would be very hard to keep the center of mass in the center of rotation using a plastic sheath. they were stating 4000 velocity so I was hopeful.

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i looked into accelerators and decided against it. Plastic fouling, poor accuracy and the extra hassle reloading the sabots cause.

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The Accelerators were a good ideal. The problem was the rifle they were shot in. Most people do well to shoot a 2-3" 10 round group from their 30-06 or 30-30. Garbage in = garbage out, and most guns wern't up to the task. Thats why varmint rifles are made. Few deer hunters turned varmint hunters realized the difficulty of hitting really small targets at long ranges.

As a life-long squirrel hunter, I always thought hitting a deer's vitals @ 100 yards was pretty easy. I was used to head shots on squirrels @ 50 yards.

When I moved up to centerfires, I was dissappointed in the low accuracy most centerfires put out.

My son and I (theycallmestick) are booked for a PD hunt on June 8th. I bought a Savage 12VFSS 223(ss, fluted 24" bbl, composit stock) with the accutrigger for the trip. I have been very happy with the rifle, it is a 200 yard squirrel gun if you do your part. I was and am astounded with the accuracy of the thing.

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The opinions & info posted about the sabot rounds matches what I have heard in the past - though I have no direct experience with them.

I keep hearing that Savage rifles are wonderfully accurate, from many different sources. I do have a friend who bought a 223 and installed the Accutrigger (this was before Savage offered it as a factory option). He's very happy with its accuracy. The original trigger was functional at best. I helped him with the trigger swap and was amazed at the simplicity of the Savage trigger design. Too bad they did not make it work as well as the rest of hte rifle.

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I have the .204 in the savage and it is quite the tac driver. Where is your hunting trip to in June???

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Rocking 7 Ranch, about an hour from Casper, Wyoming. I plan to break the Savage in properly.

The Savage is so accurate that it bores me to shoot it at the range. I can easily shoot 20 rounds rapid fire into an inch (max rounds before I rest and cool the bore). It makes it hard for me to practice. I hope that the PD hunt lives up to my expectations.

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You will have a ton of fun going dog hunting, I don't know where your scope is zeroed at but I set mine at 250-300 yard zero as a majority of your shots will be at about 300-400 yards.

I got a couple of the guys I work with hooked on it and they love it. We go to my uncles place in SD and average about 400-500 rnds per day. Can't complain when family has the land you can hunt on and you can shoot all day for free.

I hope you are taking more than one rifle with you when you go, take at least 3 and consistantly rotate them to avoid overheating the bbl.

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I've wondered about sabot's in terms of accuracy. I've used them in a .50 cal T/C for deer hunting many years now and they are accurate. With a clean barrel it's not hard to get under an inch group at 100 yards.

Then there's the M1 Abrams tank that fires a sabot round out of its smooth bore barrel while moving with outstanding accuracy.

I am not doubting a 55 grain sabot out of a .30-06; 308 or 30-30 isn't a tack driver, I know people who tried them without success, but why aren't they accurate?

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The sabot round the m-1 shoots, i think, is a fin stabalized round. Once the sabot is clear of the main projectile, it's fins pop out. It's a bit different then a 22 cal varmint round.

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Actually, the APDS round is a tungsten dart about two feet long with no fins in a 105mm. The sabot is three parts and held to the dart by bands that will fall away from the dart after it clears the barrel the Fins on the APFSDS round are fixed, if memory serves, and do not pop out for the 120mm cannon. As far as accuracy goes, we were on a range with our leopards back in the late 70's at CFB Gagetown and one fellow shot at a hard target at a range of 1000 meters and didn't see the deer that was in front of the target or at least that what he said to the investigators. The sabot round cut that deer in half!

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Didn't the CF do some experiments with smooth bores and pop out fins? On the Leopard? Around the early 80's?

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There are several problems with using the sabot method to increase velocity. The first problem is the bullet must be properly aligned in the sabot. A quick run on a dial indicator will let you see if the bullet is sitting true to the sabot. The Sabot should also be check to see if it too is aligned and concentric to the bore and should be dialed in to make it truly aligned with the bore as well.
This often involves a lot of tweaking to get both of them right.

Also don't forget if you’re shooting a sabot with a very light bullet you often need to have a slower twist rate for your barrel. Most deer rifles are set up to shoot heavy bullets at slower speeds which requires a quicker twist rate to stabilize the bullet. A small bullet launched in the same barrel at very high speed is often over spun because of this. You can improve on this by shooting thin jacketed highly uniform bullets in the sabots as they can handle over twist much better than thick jacketed bullets with non uniform wall thicknesses.

Clean bullet separation from the sabot is a must as well and is sometimes difficult to achieve. A heavy bullet compared to a light bullet in the same sabot is often less affected by this. Since a heavier bullet has a better weight ratio to the sabot they normally do not experience as much pitch and yaw during release from the sabot upon opening. That however reduces some of the speed you’re trying to gain with the sabot and a very light bullet.

Accuracy of sabot loads can be greatly improved from the factory sold sabot rounds if they are loaded in this way but getting great accuracy with so many variables is very, very tuff.

Wish you the best of luck on your next shoot,

Carl

Extreme Accuracy
www.extremeaccuracy.net

http://extremeaccuracy.net

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Good job explaining that!

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Carl thanks for taking the time to put up such a good answer with more variables than I had considered. I really like this place!

Merry Christmas, Y'all

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Just wanted to wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a happy new year.

It's good to host such a wonder group of people. You guys make this site worth keeping online.

Special thanks goes out to 'HB' for 'tending the flock' for me for the last year and a half. HB, you're the best! Thanks for covering for me.

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RBAY: That's Canuck for right back atch ya. Eh! In the mood of the festive season, just thought I'd let ya'll know that our buck is worth more than our neighbours' now. Here, although it is zero degrees outside, (that is plus thirty-two to our "F" usin' neighbours - notice the "u" in neighbours)that it is sunny and warm. Played hide & seek with a Muley doe and her fawn at 05:45 hrs, but saw no yodellers.

Even tho' ya'll pronounce your Zed's funny, I personally want you to know that anybody that attacks a neighbour of mine, must be pretty darn confident that his insurance premiums are up to date. Brings to mind the conundrum: Did they have insurance agents back in the Stone Age?

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Merry Christmas! Bit too loaded to respond to any other posts..:) Just given'er this christmas eve..Time to crawl to bed..

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Tryptophan(sp?) white wine and Crown Royal are a somniferous concoction....made me sleep-in 'til almost 07:00. Up here in Great White North, it is Boxing Day, originally intended to "box" gifts for those less fortunate. What it means now is, that unless you are seriously masochistic, one should avoid all retail outlets for the next few days.

Predators are hard to spot, but recently up near the Yuk border, a couple of emaciated wolves stalked several children. Fortunately, without interference from Green Peace or others raised in Disney fairytale land, the wolves were destroyed by shots from a rifle on consecutive days. The first one that was shot was partially consumed by her male companion before he too fell to a well placed shot. I wonder if Eisner would make a movie about this. I don't even know if Mikey is still the honcho there.

Over a decade ago, GP members camped out on local Mountie property in Ft. Nelson to protest the "wolf hunt". The menagerie in staged protest only got about two miles down the Prophet River before they had to be rescued by of all things...wolf hunters!

It is true what they say...this time of year brings fond reminiscences to mind......Merry Xmas

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Merry Christmas all!

I'm back home after heading out of town for a few days.

Havoc - This is probably the best behaved group I have seen, so "tending the flock" is a pleasure. :-)

Fully Camo'd Rifle

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It seems that the new thing to do is get a fully camo'd rifle for predator hunting. I see that Savage now sells one that is fully dipped - with scope included. I don't want to give up my old rifle, but I think a fully camo'd one would help. Here is my problem. I have called the dipping places and it is quite costly to get a gun dipped. I also found some gun kits on www.camo4u.com which is a vinyl product that you put on. Is dipping worth the cost, or will it scratch easy?

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I only have one in the arsenal thats a BDL with the original stock (though tweaked!)

What a shiny piece of beep!

Deadhogdown don't get upset about all this nonsense! When it comes to four- legged critters the end of the barrel is looking at them! Bad place to be when they don't hear the BOOM!

Keep them dull and have fun! I can't ask the last dog if he saw me!

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The simplest and cheapest way I've found to camo your instrument of choice is to construct a sock. I've used an old rag of camo fleece for various stainless bbls. The sock is one size fits all and have used it one various configurations - even on a Plaster after market stock. Got the idea about twenty five years ago when intro'd to Ghillie gear. So far have not formulated any complaints and have been within ten yds of bull moose and close enough to cow elk to tap her on nose with my bbl. Closest White tail was around 25 yds but I was on bald ass prairie and he eventually saw me after about ten minutes of my slowly trying to bring muzzle to bear. Other guys use paint or gun tape, but at the end of the season they pose a major cleaning problem. All of my implements appear to be near mint condition. I do prefer synthetic stocks (all bedded) and SS bbls (some fluted hvys). Accuracy was not affected.

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I think The camo coated rigs are more for the shooter then the prey. I personally like black mat parkerizing. Bits of surplus cam net break up the shape of my rifle. Sort of similar to what Red Dog was mentioning..But i don't wear a whole suit. Just bits of cam netting atttached to the rifle. I do have a factory Camo'ed shotgun..Pretty cool looking. But as it gets more field time, i don't think it will look as nice. it would be hard to touch up scratches on that finish.

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I agree Yote, keep them dull and I also use a sunshade to keep scope glare to a minimum. Even though on coyote sets your supposed to keep the sun to your back! Coy's aren't very forgiving.

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I'm toying with the camo idea for my .308 savage right now, it's all black. I'm leaning to brown tan and grey cam scheme. I'll do the barrel and scope included in the paint job. I also been toying with the sock method but I've been told that you need to keep all objects away from touching the barrel.
Any ideas or feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks.

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I used an elastic sewn into top of the "sock" that fits over muzzle and the length is short of muzzle brake/boss system on my bigger boomers. Initially I used all sorts of cover for scope and forestock and then gradually I began to just use the portion that covers the barrel. My synthetic stocks are matte black or green. My Leupolds are non-reflective so I was just concerned with the stainless steel reflecting light. Using still-hunting method when stalking or approaching an ambush site precludes the necessity to fully cam up your implement. Of course I am usually "Invisible" which reminds me that the other day I went shopping for some new camouflage but I couldn't find any anywhere! Accuracy was not diminished from all my BG rifles from their norm of 1/4 to half inch groups @ 110 yards (100M).

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"other day I went shopping for some new camouflage but I couldn't find any anywhere!"..This happens a lot to me, must be a Canadian thing. Unless i'm looking for a mossy oak jacket or the like. Good camo parts hard to find. Although there is a shop in New West that sells some decent camo "parts". Here's their site:

https://dstactical.com/index.php

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Yo' it was my feeble attempt at humour (note the Cdn spelling!) I usually make up my own riggin' - cheaper than ordering something that costs about $300 Yank dollars.....Oh yeah, now our buck is worth more than theirs!

I know a few guys south of the 49th that are regretting throwing away all those "worthless" pennies.

I guess it was sort of my fault, I shoulda said....I went shopping for cam suit and couln't SEE one anywhere.

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I got it..What i was meaning is that camo or camo "components" are hard to find here. Or at least i have trouble finding stuff.

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This is what I did. I found a remington 700 SPS Varmint take off stock and bought it off the net. Then I went to Home Depot and bought Green, Black, Brown, and Tan Textured paint. Walked around the house and devlopment and picked some leaves off of the local trees. I first scuffed the stock and taped it all off (Barrel and action channel trigger guard slot and grip pannels. Then primed and painted it. This is what I came out with.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/cptta....845.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/cptta....844.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/cptta....842.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/cptta....841.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/cptta....839.jpg

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l134/cptta....838.jpg

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Six or seven years ago I did that same thing with a Charles Daly 12 ga. for turkey hunting, oh wait that was a Easter present for the daughter LOL. She loved it and one year I took it for a spare dove gun to Neb. and was asked to do two rifles for the guy's out there.

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That turned out pretty nice. How does the paint hold up? Scratches etc?

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I have not had it out hunting yet. I might put it on there for a range trip. But So far it is doing ok. I think I am going to get a satin clear adn clear it with 4 or 5 coats.

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Won't a clear coat make it a bit reflective?

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I used HS Strut camo paints after I wiped it down with a degreaser/cleaner (Zep areosolve) and have beat the tar out of it in the field. I think that the rough (cheap gun) finish helped in the paint sticking. So far it's holding up great.

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I've been working on a ghillie cape, 1" fish netting and strips of burlap tied in every 2nd square. The cape will end up to be more of a blanket and I'm thinking of fabricating a hood out of netting and tieing it 6" in from the front edge of the cape slitting a hole at that location big enough for my head to slide through. It would look more like a poncho. I'm going to do the same to my savage then re-zero it with FMJs for the coyotes out here.

coyote calling

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I was just wondering if anybody had any advise or if anybody is having any problems calling in coyotes. I live in indiana. My wife and i have been having a heck of a time trying to get the yotes to come in. We mainly hunt at night some morning and evenings but can't seem to get any to come to us. I use both mouth and electronic calls. Didnt know if anybody had any suggestions. We have tried about every call i've got and nothing wants to cross in front of the scope. They must know whats going to happen to them. The good thing is coon season starts up tommorrow night that will relieve the stress. Any thoughts on calling in those whiley coyotes would be greatly appreciative. thanks and happy shooting to everybody.

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try covering yourself with meat. good luck!

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Hi, I don't know how much your Coyote experience is, so sorry if i cover something you may already know. Coyotes learn really fast. I always give people hell when i hear about.."I saw a coyote and i took a pot shot but missed.." Now that is another educated coyote. With coyotes, it's shoot to kill other wise one may never get another chance with that dog. How much hunting pressure is on the area you hunt? If the local yote population is used to being hunted. They may be vary cautious. Also too..the can get sensitized to calls. How many primos, J.S etc calls are out there, 10's of thousands. Electronic callers even worse, the sounds are more specific. It is also assumed that the coyote can hear faults, hiss? in the recording that we can't...After a while they get to know "that" sound. If they hear it enough. Like when under lots of predator hunter pressure.

Having a walk around your area, do you see any signs of coyotes? Scat (crap) is a big one. That is a major territory marker for them. Or coyote food..rabbits,or any other small furry snack for a yote? Any large holes dug around bushed areas etc? Do you hear them at dusk or night? For some reason they like to "chat" before bedding down. They are solitary animals, not normally nocturnal. But they can adapt..City coyotes are pretty much nocturnal. Makes for easier "hunting" through garbage etc. As i mentioned, they like to communicate with each other, specially around dusk or early night. But city coyotes rarely communicate. It gives them away.. When there is a big food opportunity, they will pack up to take the game. I have witnessed a pack forming a few times ,major howling going on, lots of running around. Kind of freaky actually. I used to wonder why they were packing up..for me????

One thing to think about is a coyote can roam 50km per day, or more, looking for food and they do patrol around their area.. Where they bed down, is not usually where they "hunt". You may be hunting in more of a transitional area, they merely walk through and rarely stick around.

What calls are you using and how long do you call for? Use a howler? One thing to be aware with a howler is you can turn the coyotes off. A group of short barks mean a warning. They will leave the area. Excessively long howls mean something isn't normal and they will head else where. Remember..Your lung capacity as a human is more then a coyotes. It's easy to howl for too long or "cry" (rabbit call) too long. A rabbits lungs are even smaller. The main thing when using a call is to sound like a food opportunity, or one that is happening and the coyote thinks he can scam in on a meal. Sounding exactly like a scared rabbit won't help that much. So don't worry about having exact sounds. Just sound interesting. Perk the dogs curiosity.

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I have got a Johny Stewart tape player and several mouth calls. We locate at night with the howler and usually they howl back. Then we try to get down wind from them and depending on the time of year we use a coyote pup in distress or a rabbit in distress and they usually come to investigate. Not to many people around here hunt yotes so i dont think they have to much pressure on them. I dont think i havent seen anybody out and about hunting while we are. I'll try not howling and just sit down and and start calling with some type of distress call. We might be howling to much. Thanks for all the info yotehammer i will let you know how it goes. I will try to cover myself with meat i'll let you know how that works out gezzer.LOL

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Yes, with the howling, if they respond. That's good enough with the howler. Too much and that will turn the dogs off. If you figure the dogs aren't too far off. don't blow too hard into your mouth calls. Unless it's a really windy day or lots of brush/trees. Sound travels pretty good. Calling too loud can be a turn off too. End up sounding like a 10 ft rabbit..

Not many people hunting in your area? Enjoy!

One thing you can do..A little more practical then covering yourself with meat (joking)..Is try to source out some pure blood meal. You can carry the meal with you. When you think you have an area you want to call. Mix the meal with a bit of water and spray it on a tree, bush etc. Then back up to a good calling spot. Now the dog will have sound and smell.

I figure Coyotes are similar..With a domestic dog, It's more "excited" by the smell of the food then the taste. A dog doesn't have much taste, or i should say that area isn't as developed as it's sense of smell. Liquified blood meal, will spark some interest for sure. Hunting at night is a bit of a tough one because the coyote can see better then you. Chances are..If you see him he has already seen you. But you can have an advantage..Stay as still as possible. A coyotes sight is tuned for movement. If you don't move, the dog may not see you..unless another sense helps him detect you.

You may want to try using a blanket to cover yourself up with when your sitting. That way you can move your arms around etc. underneath. The blanket keeps your extra movements better hidden.

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you might try a turkey call! might sound stupid but i called 2 in when i was turkey hunting. i must be a poor turkey caller,i got no turkeys but smoked 1 coyote. good luck...shoot straight!

25 WSSM ?

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I am looking into a Winchester 25 WSSM in a model 70 Stealth II. I am interested in shooting 87Gr bullets at the 3500 FPS . I want this for LONG range varmits and I want to know is it too destructive on Coyotes?? I would want to use the pelts if I were to do a trip out west. Anyone use this cal? I have a 25/06 but like the idea of a shorter action. J.Michael

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I'm wondering what your reasons are for going with a 25 cal over a 243.

There is an excellent bullet selection in 243 (6mm).

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The Velosity drop piont in the 243 is with a lighter bullet than with the 25. I can shoot the 87Gr at 3500FPS and a 100GR at 3200fps with the 25 cal For great long range accuracy. In the 243 I can't get that bullet weight and vel. I love the 243 and compared the 243/284 and 243WSSM but the 25 really out shines them. The 25 would also make a fine long range Antalope gun. That is my thinking. My goal is LONG Range out to 600 YDS. J.Michael

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Prairie goats don't stand still too long where I used to stalk them as a kid. I just got back from Alta where on occasion the breeze may be more than slight. While there I packed a 300Win For various deer. I missed a nice 5x7 @378 yds due to a gust estimated to be around 70Kmph. Winds topped more than 100 kmph (circa 60/65mph) during my two wk hunt. I have serious doubts about using 25 cal at 600 yds unless conditions are ideal. My own personal choice would be a 7mm Mag at minimum and that is based on my ethic to attempt to humanely dispatch my quarry.
It is my experience to have seen numerous wounded goats suffer needlessly. I have been known to shoot a full string of rams @ 500M (circa 550Y) standing off-hand unsupported without missing, but that was on calm days. Lots of shooters like the 6.5mm for that game. I know not one that uses a 25 cal. Although there is only slightly more than a thou of an inch difference, the SD & BC would be a little better.
The higher velocity, the more temporary cavitation in soft skin animals so I would guess ur planned projectile would rip the average Yote in two until about the 220yd mark.

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ha guys i agree with HB ? the .243 in the hornady hand book it has a range from 58g. to 105g.you read about guys taking antalope with it so white tail sould be no problem ether, i would think going to a .30 cal.for your 600 yards would be more in line unless you are going to use somthing like a 25-06 or faster.

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I have used a Winchester Model 70 Ultimate Shadow in .25WSSM for about two years. I bought it with the idea it would do the job on coyotes and be a great extra rifle for antelope and mule deer for my grandkids and daughters-in-law. I can certify it kills coyotes as well as any rifle I own. I have noticed the .257" bullets that weigh 85 - 87 grs. go clear through the coyote. The Hornady 87 gr. spire points do less pelt damage than the Nosler 85 gr. ballistic tips. I am using the Nosler "varmint" ballistic tips so they have a thinner jacket and come apart faster. I use 43.0 gr. Varget and the 87 gr. Hornady bullet for a chrono. velocity of 3,350 fps and .305" - .595" groups at 100 yards. The 85 gr. Nosler bullets shoot best with 47.0 gr. BL-C(2) for a chrono. velocity of 3,448 fps and a group of .549" - .633" at 100 yards. Best of luck with the .25. I have some Barnes Triple-Shock .257" 100 gr. bullets for big game hunting for the girls. Although, none of them have drawn tag yet.

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If you want to save the pelts, i would recomend a 17 rem magnum.

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I've been hunting coyotes with my savage 110 in .308. I dropped a coyote at 76 yards. My bullet was a Sierra 150 gn BTSP but I should have used a full metal jacket as the bullet just opened him up like a Christmas turkey. Unfortunately, the pelt was destroyed. As far as choice of Caliber goes, I have had a 7mm-08 and rechambered that rifle to 280 Rem and wasn't satified with either cartridge. Since I'm an ex soldier, I went back to the old 7.62 NATO(.308 win.). Bullet choices are much better as you can readily pick up FMJs at a fraction of the cost of a regular expanding bullet.

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Don't know about the US. But in BC, Canada, FMJ bullets are not legal for hunting. What did you not like about the 7mm-08 or 280?

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Back in the day of dog-sleds and Eskimos prior to snow-machines and the PC Inuit, I personally know of a few white bear succumbing to a FMJ fired from a .222 Rem. Small hole in chest is less difficult to repair. Long ago when still collecting the odd pelt, I found that a toned down Match King HP (162gr) actually did not do too much damage to a pelt if one was lucky enough to avoid bone. I cannot recall MV of load I used but do recall it was around 90% case capacity. I did not experience ignition problems even when using slow pwdr by using Mag Primer.

I vehemently deny that the small hole in that competition bullet I used somehow managed to have it's hollow point filled in, or pinched shut and filed to a slightly different ogive. That may have been interpreted as slightly illegal!

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If you are looking for a fast light bullet then go for the 6mm. I shoot a rem 6mm with a 55gr ballistic tip. I shot a doe at 275 yds the bullet went through leaving a small hole on exit. The lungs were jello. She went about 10 feet. This bullet when loaded with enough powder will reach the 4000 ft mark.

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I would be very careful using the 6mm, 55-grain bullets for hunting. They are intend as a varmint bullet and very fragile.

The exit hole was most likely the base of the bullet, which is unique to Nosler's Ballistic Tip and Solid Base jackets.

Slow Twist?

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I am resurrecting a project rifle that has been in someones closet for around 30 years. It's a heavy barrel rifle based on a 1932 Mexican Mauser action, heavy barrel in 22-250, possibly made by Krieger (according to the gunsmith) and a benchrest style Fajen stock. Most of the 22-250s I've seen have a 1 in 14 twist. This one has 1 in 15 twist. Did benchrest shooters use 1 in 15? I suppose lighter bullets would be required here, or perhaps up to 55 gr loaded hot. Any ideas? Thanks

Dave H
San Antonio, TX

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Im no expert on twist rates but generally the trend tends to be tight twist for long bullets, slow twist for short bullets so you may want to go even lighter than 55 grain. experiment some and let us know how it turns out

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Velocity is not a major factor in bullet stability. Bullet length and twist rate are.
Do not count on more velocity to fix an unstable situation.

The 1-15 twist will probably stabilize flat-base, 50-grain bullets. If shot in unusually cold weather (denser air), then you may run into stability issues. For factory guns, manufacturers typically use a twist rate that will reliably stabilize the longest available factory bullets under the worst conditions. This leaves a lot of room to play with for custom guns.

Benchrest shooters like to use the absolute minimum twist rate, and they willingly limit their bullet choices and twist rate to fit the narrow conditions used in competition.

A faster twist magnifies bullet defects, and a 1/4" difference in impact will lose them a match. For most of the rest of us, even varmint shooters, that 1/4" is not significant.

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MY REM.WITH BULL BARREL CAME IN 1 IN 14 SHOOTS 52S TO 55 BUT NOT 60S.GR. V-MAX GET A MODERN GUN OR PUT ON A NEW BARREL.

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That action may not stand a lot of pressure. I would definitely do some checking. You need advice from a Mauser expert. Loading small bullets hot is great for the slow twist but a faceful of metal is not fun.

HM

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Original swift was 48 grain bullet. The idea was "fast" at any cost.
ii). Mr. Ackley wrote that rifling absorbs 1/3 of the bullet energy. I asked, sincerely about this and he said that part of his book was written by a better math man than he and he would get back to me. Sure enough, I got a letter, couple weeks later. Math man had said that, yes, 1/3 was right. He also mentioned experiment by Howe, 6,000 feet per second. Smooth bore barrel. Sintered iron bullet. Not too useful, but impressive...
So, you have a varmint project, probably. Real round nosed (shorter) 60 grainers MIGHT shoot. 55's maybe. 50's probably. 45? FAST and well. luck. happy holidays.

SRM Store at CafePress.com closed

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Seems that my SRM designs were censored as "offensive" by CafePress.com. Pity.

I've closed the CafePress store, and I'm looking at my options for publishing the designs somewhere else.

It's not all bad. I sold few enough items through the store and a low enough markup, that I really never realized any cash from the account. Mostly it's just fun to provide the designs for people to wear.

I'll update you when I get something new online.

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I may be interested in several "Certified Gopher Flying Instructor" shirts as well as the much coveted "Helicopter" endorsement,or even the 200 meter hover pin. We are still in discussion about the design for the "Croix de Pelt" or the exact criterion for being awarded our most prestigious decoration.

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Sorry to hear that, my neighbor was getting all excited about the 'got hollow points' shirt I wear. Plus he really likes the hat I got a few years ago. When you get it all up and running again let us all know.

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Havoc, have'nt been on to long! I'll buy something!!!!!!!!!!!.

Let us know! Thanks

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Lets just sit the kitty in front of the clothes line full of white t-shirts then let the hollowpoints paint the shirts.

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Can you put your items on a separate string in here for all to see?
Then orders could be e-mailed to you.
Just a thought.

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I've killed the SRM store at Cafepress.com. If I ever get the time, I'm hoping to reconstitute the store at another, less oppressively liberal online site.

I didn't make much money from the CafePress store, but enough to pay it's own bills. The markup was minimal, but made the fun designs available for people. The trade-off for low markup was that I didn't have to maintain an inventory, or do the shipping myself.

I just need to find the time to do the work to get the designs back online somewhere else.

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Looking forward to it. My SRM hats are getting pretty ragged. My boys wear them to school every day.

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That's funny! I'll have to look around for options. Boys need hats!

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? DID YOU TRY E-BAY YOU CAN TELL US TO BY THEM THERE FROM HERE.

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The way it was done was that the shirts were printed on demand -- which explains the high price. I don't have an inventory of products, and never have sold enough to pay for keeping an inventory. So, selling them on ebay is pretty problematic.

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is there anyway we can special order any of the products i was hoping to get a few things as christmas presents

Finally!

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Lost my p-dog virginity! First shot took his head clean off. Im pretty excited. Wish I had more time to shoot at them but the sun was going down. :(

JMK

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Cool! What range and what did you blast it with?

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Congratulations!

When/where?
I'd think it was getting rather late in the year for PDs.

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Thanks. This past weekend up in Clayton, NM. Headed up there to take care of some business he had and brought the guns just in case... I shot them with my Rem 700 22-250 range roughly 150-200 yds. It kinda sucks no one around here (clovis, nm) likes people to shoot at their p-dogs. So annoying. Anyway thanks again!!

JMK

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Whoa... Watch 'im folks he's got the bug. Life just won't be the same again. Tell your wife you'll miss her and that if she's strong enough- she'll understand that little critters simply MUST be taught to fly and explode... and that now YOU must be the one to see that it gets done.

Congratulations!

(Respondant's Note: I am a Southerner and the previous message was intended to be interpreted solely as humor.)

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Haha. For sure! No wife so good to go. lol Thanks for the support.

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You should go to Wyoming for two reasons, one you can get lots of blasting time, and two there are plenty of young available women. If your lucky you get a wife who's parents own lots of land and you will be one of the few with the best of both worlds.

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Ive heard the hunting there was good. I think its out of the question for the next year or so though. Headed to Korea in a couple months for a year tour. Then its off to Hill AFB in Ogden UT. Hows the hunting out that way?

smoothing a bore.

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any ideas on polishing a rifle bore,i have used jb bore cleaner and brasso. the brasso scares me, the last thing i want to do is ruin the bore. when i bought the rifle the bore was dull,oilyrust maybe.i cant seem to get a mirror polish to it ,it shoots .75 @100yrds. but it should do better,its a 788 for christ sake! any info would be great thanks.

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You might want to try 'Butch's Bore Shine'. Use patches and keep it good and wet for a few hours to let the cleaner penetrate the metal. I agree with you on the Brasso, I would not use it.

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A factory barrel that shoots 3/4 MOA is pretty good - certainly not something to complain about.

If the bore is very rough, you can fire-lap it. NECO sells a kit.
Fire lapping is SOMETIMES very beneficial to a factory barrel. I personally would not fire-lap a custom barrel though, as they are generally much smoother than factory barrels.

Instead of Brasso, you may try Flitz metal polish. I have heard of some people using it with good results. While it is a more aggressive polish than JB, you would still have to do a whole lot of polishing to damage a barrel. I have used it with good results on older military barrels to remove heavy copper fouling.

Remember, always use a bore guide and use a good (one piece) cleaning rod. More damage has been done to rifle bores with improper cleaning and crappy cleaning rods than has been done by shooting.

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Hello, I'm new to this site. I have recently bought my wife a new weatherby compact in .243. I noticed brownells has a "final finish system". It is simply abrasive bullets that sequentailly smooth out the bore. I was wondering if anyone has tried these out and how well they work.

here's the link.

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/produ....inish&s=

Pat

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/produ....&s=

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#1). It is ALL "barrel wear." One 'smith admitted that he encouraged the shoot and clean routine, if for no other reason than it sold more barrels for him.
#2). NRA had a routine in the magazine many years ago using a lead slug cast in the bore with valve grinding compound... but this was for "nra moonscape" surplus military bores. If you have commercial... WHY?
#3). Shooting the gun will smooth the bore and more fun IMHO.
#4). Mr. Donaldson, who claimed to have started match shooting with a muzzle loaded bullet, black powder gun... he said they used toothpaste to smooth the bore. didn't mention a brand... Bon Ami is supposed to be "mild." Then there is the jeweler's rouge with which they polish glass...
#5). NECO (I forget the web address) pioneered this along with the moly on bullets process. If you must, and the barrel shoots BAD... if it is any where near good, just shoot it and clean normally. They have some info, alot really, and an 800 number. Real engineers. Call them. luck.

exploding targets

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[this was posted over at the old Yahoo!Groups VHL. I'm reposting it here for community enjoyment.)

Dan Thames <pyrodan@c...> to VHL

I have not posted to this group for several years, so I am largely
unknown to the group. I have been spending most of my hobby time and
money building large fireworks. I came across a formula for
exploding targets. They need a hit from a bullet in the 2000 Ft/sec
range to explode. Current US explosives laws require you to have a
permit or a license to possess, store, or transport explosive
material. The law does permit a person to make explosived for your
own use, if you use them the same day and do not transport them. You
must also make sure you are not breaking any state or local laws.

The formula is described on this web page,
http://www.boomershoot.org/general/EG.htm

This is not my web page, but I have followed this fellows methods to
make my own targets. The ammonium nitrate is a specific type of
fertilizer and often people do want to know what you are going to do
with it. If you know someone that raises crops, you might get some
through them. The potassium chlorate can be obtained through pyro-
technic suppliers like Skylighter (www.skylighter.com). Please read
all the cautions on the web page. This stuff is not spark sensitive,
so you can't set it off with a fuse. Also, a 22 rimfire will not
work...I have tried. Actually I have been working to make it
senstive enough for a 22 rimfire, but it needs more energy to make it
blow. When it does go off, a 6 oz yogurt cup is similar to half a
stick of dynamite. It makes a large amount of white smoke and a good
boom. It is idea to see if you hit a target. It is good for
practice shooting when no real varmints are available.

Dan Thames

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I think this may have some potential......

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Kinda scares me, I might just try it.

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Up here in the northwoods it is agin da law to have an IED. Checked out site and precursors etc are correct, but methodology might make u wish u had Canuck health insurance instead of ur HMOs (More likely exceptionally good term life insurance). I suspect workin' at a farm workshop to make these devices must mean there is an angel watching over the procedures. Personally, I think I'd prefer a chem lab. Substance is so volatile that if it is somehow accidentally ingested ur stomach acid would set off the worst case of gas u could imagine. We have used four Litre milk containers with colored water out to about a thousand and ordinary beer cans at about 600M and they seem to work well.

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Sounds like lots of fun..But yes, i would have to agree with red dog. I'm not too sure about the stability of that "product". Also too it would suck to have a C.O stumble across us doing that. Making improvised explosives is a huge charge up here in Canada. With our gun laws, having that charge, one could kiss owning a firearm legally here good bye. Interesting idea though..

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Tannerite is another exploding target product. I think it is based primarily on ammonium nitrate and aluminum powder - both items are safe & stable to handle.

As I understand it U.S. laws preclude transporting the mixed product, so you have to mix it where it is used. Possessing the ingredients is not illegal, just transporting the mixed product.

If possessing the ingredients for explosives were illegal, most people would be in violation. Common household items can be mixed into explosive or incendiary compounds.

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