Seekers of the Red Mist (SRM) -- Varmint Hunting

Resources

Photo Album

This is always a work in progress
Hate Mail

Hot Tips

from the list Varmint Hunters Assoc's
Landowner Courtesy Sheet

Members pages

Shooting Books

Links

Need Help? havoc@harrisdev.com

Index of all threads

Seekers of the Red Mist (SRM) on Facebook

Seekers of the Red Mist
(Varmint Hunting Discussion)

RE2.5 beta

General Discussion

	1 Classified Ads Coffee Events (7/0/0) (1 folders) Gear (60/0/0) Handloading (537/0/0) (2 folders) Humor Hunting wheels (20/0/0) Long guns (435/0/0) (1 folders) Misc (84/0/0) (3 folders) MostDangerous (29/0/0)	Optics (110/0/0) (2 folders) Photo Album (36/0/0) Politics (233/4/0) Predators (177/0/0) Short guns (72/0/0) species-specific varmints (73/0/0) (2 folders) Technology (13/0/0) Wildcat Rounds (111/0/0) (1 folders) ~FAQ ~Suggestion Box (44/0/0)

Early B-puts

[Print]
I made a call to SoDak this morning to tell the farmer/rancher when we would be out to shoot and he told me to come out in early March. Why is it I alway's hear to go late May-June? Should we wait for the 'hatch' or is it do to the weather and the gumbo?

[Print]
As far as I know, it's strictly to let the new pups be weaned and not die off because their parents were killed by eager hunters. But of course the ranchers don't worry too much about if the new seasons young are going to survive. I believe that's also why most states that have seasons on prairie dogs start those seasons after June. Good luck!

.17 Remington Fireball!!!

[Print]
I went to Remington's website, and they came out with a new bullet. The .17 Remington Fireball. How is it different from the .17 Remington? I'm guessing its just a .221 Fireball necked down to a .17 bullet. Looks awesome to me! 4000 fps at muzzle, less than two pounds recoil, etc. What do ya'll think?

[Print]
Maybe it won't gain the reputation of fouling like the .17 Remington. I really hope it takes off and does well. The .204 is the hottest varmint thing to come along in years- it's refreshing to see new stuff that isn't all about .30+ caliber magnums or WSSM's.

[Print]
What year did the .204 come out?

[Print]
Good question. I've got a 2003 Modern Reloading book by Richard Lee that doesn't have it listed. (Hmm, why don't I check the net?)

Sierra Bullets says the round was innerduced in 2004. Wikipedia doesn't say "when"- but it does say lots of other neat stuff about it.

[Print]
It was in 2004, I just looked it up.

[Print]
Hello fellow exterminators of furry rodents. Check out Mr P.O. Ackley's fine books and you will find numerous mentions of the 20 cal rounds mentioned that were devoloped in the 50's and 60's . I think the only reason they didnt catch on was a lack of bullets. At the time there were no commercial made 20 cals so they had to be custom made.
Any way they are a fine series of books for shooting enthusiasts to read
happy trails

[Print]
What about the 19 calhoohs. Does any one have one or heard any thing about 'em. I'm liking that 19-223 but the only place for info is thier web page. Priced kind of high when you add up 2 sets of dies (fl& neck),bullet and every thing else it could run $1200-1300 for something you (I) haven't heard much about. And that 37 gr. bullet w/ 14 grs. of blue dot {223) won't cycle in a AR.(I got my order in yesterday)

RE: 19 calhoon badger

[Print]
Mr Calhoon is currently selling a new flavor ultimate varmint gun. Its a 30 caliber carbine case necked down to a 19 caliber. Its called the 19 badger. The shell is teeny but the speed if I remember right was 3850 fps.The report is minimal and you can shoot and shoot and shoot with out the barrel heating up due to the small stature of the case and bullet.But its very accurate , very long range and it turns varmints inside out when you hit one. Mr Calhoon graciously let me shoot one of his 19 badgers out the back door of his bullet factory. I doubt they let you do that in new york city. It shot really well by the way. You can see one on his website, www.calhoon bullets.com.

[Print]
The next time I'm in Havre I've got to try out one of those badger rounds. I've been watching the comparisons of the 22-250, 220 swift, 204 Ruger, 17 remington, and the calhoon rounds. Its interesting to see the claims that such and such round is sooooo much better, etc. What I'm seeing is that ballistically they aren't that radically different but other factors are more important such as, like you mentioned, barrel heating, report, recoil, etc. I love my 250 but I wish I had a round that doesn't recoil so much so I can keep an eye on things and I'd like to keep my barrel cool. As for the 19 badger I wonder how much of the performance is due to the round and how much is due to Calhoons double hollow point bullets? I guess I'd better take a drive next summer.

[Print]
I called them yesterday and the 19-223 fouls like anything else but the Badger is 50 shots. I just don't know if I really need it when I've been wanting a Socom since they came out. Oh, what to do! Maybe just get 'em both:-)

[Print]
I wonder if the 19 vs 20 cal thing is marketing. the 19 from Calhoun is .198 vs .204 for other 20's. How much difference can there be? I like the idea of less than maximum velocities. Again, how much does one need for most varmints?

Dave H

[Print]
To a large degree you are correct, a person couldn't go wrong with either one. They will both perform well within their limits. However there is a lot more to a round than just its bullet diameter. You have case volume, taper, shoulder angle, powder, bullets, etc. The firearm they are fired in will also affect things so comparisons can vary even if the rounds are extremely similar. Even with the number of variables you won't see a huge amount of difference. Anyway, I'd probably tell people to pick the .204 simply because you don't have as much hassle finding ammo and so forth. On the other hand, I like to support small business guys like Calhoon so maybe I wouldn't... I wish I could commit to one side or the other but I'm looking at one myself and am having a tough decision too.

[Print]
Not to hijack the 17 thread, but does anyone have any experience on the 20 cal based on the 221 Fireball? I think 20 VARTAG is the commercial name, but it would seem others might have wildcatted this one also.

Dave H
San Antonio, TX

[Print]
feel free to fire off a new thread any time by clicking the "new entry" button at the top of the page.

Advice for rookie

[Print]
After years of shooting various shotgun sports, I would like to try my hand at varminting. I have access to land in South Dakota, but was told it is a good idea to bring two rifles because I wouldn't want to overheat the barrels. I was looking at the Savage VSS in .223 and the Savage BVSS in .243 Win. I like the Bushnell 3200 in 7x21 for the .223 and the Bushnell 4200 in 6x24 for the .243 for longer and windier conditions. Do these choices cover all my bases for a hunt in SD? What other gear am I going to need? What cleaning supplies etc. will I need? Any suggestions would be most welcome especially if there are less expesive ways to go. Thanks.

[Print]
I don't know what your budget looks like- but it looks to me that you're doing real well and on a good track. I'd say you've done some homework.
Somewhere in here are all the answers you need- everybody has their favorite equipment, accessories, tips, tricks, and secrets (sounds like the shotgun crowd-huh?). My $.02 worth? Lock-Tite Blue for your mounting and ring screws. Kroil oil and Rem-Oil for cleaning- no sense in getting over aggressive there. Carbon, carbon fiber, or fiberglass cleaning rod- Be sure to clean from the breech and protect your crown at all costs. Oh, and you'll need something to shoot off of. A table is good because sometimes grass gets taller than bi-pods. A feller doesn't need to have a lot of money in order to shoot like one that does.

Edit: Some folks would swear by lengthy bbl break-in processes. Me? I've always had good luck with those long, drawn out, and about half crazy sounding break-in processes.

[Print]
Thanks. I've heard a lot about moly coated bullets. IDo you think that is the road I should take? Can I switch once I've used the moly? Tell me more please.

[Print]
Welcome to the rats blast brotherhood! I agree it sounds like you have done your homework. Two guns is good and three or more is better, remember when the air temps are above 85 or so the barrels will take a long time to cool off. A good diversion is a rimfire 22 and do a walk-about or drive-by. As for barrel break-in. If your set on the calibers mentioned treat the barrels with Butch's Bore shine for 24 to 48 hours before a shot is ever fired. We did a test in Afganistan and it made a 3000 to 5000 round difference in barrel life in a full auto .223. Again just my $.02 worth. But again having fun is the goal!

[Print]
Good to have a new rookie on board, this is the place to learn A LOT about the finer points from poeple who can, and will help us rookies. Savage has a barrel break-in procedure in the book I just went by it and then worked on finding the load my gun liked. Every gun likes a different bullet/powder load but that will come to you when you get obsessed with this stuff. As far as how many guns youll need, I went to So.Dak with 7 but only shot 3. I should have used them all since it was 105 de. and after 3 shots the barrels never cooled down.That was early July 06 and my first time seeking the Red Mist, two trips are planed this year.

[Print]
Moly coat? I don't honestly know any more. I think that falls into the 'personal preference' catagory. For several years, it seemed to have been a cardnal sin by many not to do it... lately, there have been a couple of articles float around that indicate that there really isn't much benefit to it. It would be interesting to know how many of the serious shooters at Camp Perry use it. Anybody know where to look that kinda info up?

Are you planning on reloading?

[Print]
My 2 cents, don't take offense!First of all, much like the shotgunning sports, varmiting, wether shooting ground squirrels (gophers) or prairie dogs, can be more addicting than heroin.There, now you have been warned.
It sounds like you have some most excellent medicine to play the game with, with your choice of shooters. Here are a couple of thoughts, first , if you shovel massive rounds through that 243 besides the barrel getting hot enough to light a havana cigar off of, the recoil is eventually going to make you cringe. Its like shooting a 600 round two day trap shoot with handicap loads. You might consider (if you reload) reduced loads.They can be much more pleasant and just as devastating. Plus you can keep watching through your scope with out getting a bleeding smily-face eyebrow. the lyman cast bullet book has millions of receipes and you can substitute jacketed bullets instead of cast as long as you shy from the max loads.
Chances are good that some of your shots are going to be up close and personal. Shooting big fat close shots with a 24 power scope is like throwing snowballs at kindergarteners. But! One can not allow them mercy just because they are close at hand. If you allowed that to happen the first thing you knew you might be under attack! So here is a thought. If you are driving and space is not that big of an issue consider taking one of your scatter guns and a bucket of slugs. You can buy a lee shotgun slug mold for like $16 at midway. You can melt lead over a variety of things like a coleman stove or a turkey deep fat fryer.Or buy a second hand bullet casting furnace for $25 bucks on ebay. Then load your slugs just like you would your trap shells (lee molds come with instructions on powder type and wads etc.) Just be sure to use pure lead so you don't make a blunderbus out of your scattergun.And when your shooting iron gets too hot , sling punkin balls at them for a while.Its great fun and it improves your instinctive shooting. Also I have noticed that when you hit a three pound varmint with a 575 grain hunk of lead, its no longer a catch and release sport. Have fun and good luck.

[Print]
Welcome aboard aaatkr! I agree with everyone that you are on the right track with your chosen hardware. I have an older Savage 112 in .22-250 and I also shoot a couple .243 cals of different makes. I have a 4200 Bushnell 6-24X on one of my .243s as well. They are all great choices of equipment. As for moly coating, I moly everything I shoot, now that I got my DIY moly coating kit from Midway USA. Just coat the bores with a light coating of moly paste before you start shooting and your cleaning time will be minimal. My last groups are as small as my first ones, with no cleaning necessary in between during range outings of over 50 rounds. This is extremely nice for long shooting sessions afield. The moly also makes cleaning chores a snap when you do finally break out the brushes and patches.
Be safe and happy varminting!

[Print]
http://www.shootersolutions.com/molyfusion1.html

I have been reading a lot about this over on a 22 rim fire forum and this guy sells molyfusion. I was wondering if it was any good and has anyone used it before. One guy claims to get 200 feet per second faster from his 17 HMR. I think the link above has the instructions on how to apply it for best performance... Has anybody tried this?

Tom

[Print]
Looks like you are well on your way as far as hardware goes.

I have been shooting prairie rats on on the Rosebud Indian reservation a few times. The shooting can be very good, depending on where you go. They do have a bunch of extra rules, so check out this link:
Rosebud Sioux Tribe Game, Fish & Parks

Moly... This is an interesting debate.
In my opinion, most people that try moly go about it in ways that invite failure.
Molybdenum Disulphide is a dry powder lubricant, much like graphite, except that it is able to handle much higher temperatures and pressures.

Most people clean their rifle, then start shooting moly-coated bullets. Most of these people are less than thrilled with the results, and understandably so! Roughly 30 shots are needed to get enough moly put down in the bore. During that time, the characteristics of the bore are changing, plus copper is being deposited in part of the barrel during all this. After cleaning the barrel you need o repeat this process. Any process that needs ~30 shots to settle down is not a good way to go, in my opinion.

To get around these problems I like to start with a very clean barrel, then pre-treat it with moly before shooting. I use a tight, dry patch with dry moly powder. I burnish moly into the length of the bore, and finish with one dry patch to get any extra moly powder out. Then I shoot moly-coated bullets.

I have had very good results with this method. The first shot from a cold, clean bore is in the same group as following shots, eliminating the need for a fouling shot (or 30!). Cleaning the bore is easier than without moly - what copper fouling there is is mush easier to remove.

If you want to switch to using moly-coated bullets in a rifle that has been around a while, you can do this. However, make sure you clean the bore very well, removing any & all copper or carbon fouling FIRST, then pre-treat the bore with moly, then shoot moly bullets.
I have also moved back & forth between moly & no-moly bullets, though this does not work as well as moly only.

[Print]
Thanks for all your help. I've been told I should consider the 220 swift instead of the 223. I would still use the 243 for longer, windier conditions(right?). Will barrel life be much shorter in the swift than the 223? Is recoil comparable to the 223? What are the advantages/disadvantages with the swift over the 223? Since Savage doesn't make the LRPV or BVSS in 220 swift, what is a good choice should I decide on that caliber? Thanks again, I'm getting more confused.

[Print]
I can't remember if you said whether or not you reload, I'll look again when I'm not in so much of a hurry. But... on the shelves around Amarillo, we don't see a large selection of .220 Swifts (rifles OR ammo). For a notch above .223 and below .243- there sure are a lot of good choices and happy folks who are shooting the readily available .22-250. Some of the older gunsmiths have described the Swift as a 'Coal Burner' compared to the .22-250. One important thing to remember is to keep your .243 and .22-250 ammo well separated in lower light since they look so similar.

[Print]
AAATKR,
Huffmo has some good advice.

If you have a .243, then I would not duplicate its capabilities with the Swift. If you reload, then you can load 55 grain varmint bullets in the 243 and get all the velocity the Swift offers (right around 4,000 FPS). If you don't reload, Black Hills Ammo sells 55 grain Nosler BTs in 243.

The 223 is a varminting basic. It offers good accuracy, good ballistics, excellent ammunition choices, it is easy to reload, everyone chambers their rifles in this caliber, etc...
Recoil for the 223 is much lower than the Swift or 243.
Barrel life in the 223 is noticeably better than for the Swift (better than the 243, too!).

The Swift is a dedicated varmint caliber. Most people would not consider it a nice plinking round, whereas the 223 is. The barrel gets much hotter much faster with teh Swift. What the Swift excels at is shooting varmints at long range and difficult conditions (windy). Most states prohibit deer hunting with any 22 caliber rifle. The 243 is a good deer caliber.

For 6mm calibers, I like the 6mm Remington over the .243 Winchester even though they are virtually identical with light varmint bullets.... But that's just my personal foibles. There are advantages the 243 offers that should not be overlooked, most especially by someone starting out.

If I were in your position, I would get the 223 for varmints and the 243 for long range varmints and Whitetail deer hunting. The 220 Swift is a dedicated platform that has limits you don't need at this time.

[Print]
Does anyone shoot a round heavier than 60gr through their .22-250? I've never had one, and for some reason that's a bit troubling in itself. Do the same twist rates, and twist rate availability, apply to both the .223 and the .22-250? It sure would be cool if Santy Claus would bring me a CZ 550 in .22-250 flavor... I'd even agree to stop throwing sticks at short fat ugly kids if he'd agree to bring me one.

[Print]
The ballistic formulas are based on projectile density, diameter, length, mass and twist rate. Everything I've ever looked at shows that these calculations are independent of projectile velocity, so, "yes, theoretically, a .223 and 22-250 should achieve stabilization on the same bullets with the same twist rates."

[Print]
Finding a 22-250 with a 1/9 or 1/8 twist might be a chore wouldn't it?

[Print]
not if you special order everything anyway. ;)

Keeping light bullets from disintegrating on muzzle exit would be a different problem, though.

[Print]
Savage makes a 22-250 in 1:9 specifically for long range varminting.

WYK

[Print]
Hey, looks like your geting lots of good advice, so I will only give you what I've found out personaly through experance w/ my rifles. I have a CZ 550 in 22-250 cal and this is one firearm that has never done any thing wrong and I love the single set trigger and longer bbl that comes standard with it. The 22-250 is the older of the two cartrages(ie: 220-swift). I have found the 250 to be inheantly accurate whereas the swift can be a bit more fussie.
If you will hand load the 22-250 W/ 41.5gr of win 760bp it will save a lot of time hunting for a load. I also use the hndy 50gr V-max bullet. this gives me an average velocity just over 3700fps. This load has worked well in every 250 I've owned but use it with caution! If your head space is a little sloppy it might give you some pressure pblms. (hard to open action). Dont use in Savage or other cheep rifles.

I pre coat molly my bbls and find no end to the benifit of using molly w/ the .22cal but as cal increase in size the advantage drops off rapidly. I use Lyman's system of coating all my .22cal bullets. Works well, is a little messie.

I have 6mm rem, I've shot Deer and varment w/ it and love it. I think this is one of thoes under apprecated cals. I don't really care for the .243win but I feel that way abt all the .308 neck downs. To me they seem harder to load beacouse of the limited case capacity.(just my oppinion).

Scopes; "LEPOLD" Nuff said, don't waist money on anything else.

I don't understand the recoil discussion till you get beond the .25-06 but my Dad has a .270win that he loves to shoot ground hogs with and before he had the JP howitzer break put on it, it would pring tears to your eyes after abt the 3rd shot. LOL

Above all, Have Fun & Be Safe

[Print]
The 220 Swift is quite a bit older than the 22-250. The 22-250 was introduced by Browning in 1963 as a factory cartridge - before that it was a wildcat. Even it's parent case, the 250 Savage, came a year behind the 220 swift, which was introduced in 1935.

WYK

AR 22-250

[Print]
I was wondering if anyone has ever built or knows anyone that built an AR22-250.
I know they make.243,.260 and .308. But seeing as the 22-250 is such a popular varmint cartridge I would think someone may have built one. I am thinking of doing it but was wondering if it has been done.

[Print]
While the .22-250 is not based on the .308 case, it is close and should not give feeding problems in an AR-10 platform. The AR-15 platform is smaller and not suitable for calibers with a .308-sized case.

I do not know of any company that offers the .22-250 caliber as a factory option in AR-type platforms. You'd have to have a barrel made and installed.

Is there any reason why you would choose a .22-250 over a .243? The 6mm (.243) bullet selection is excellent for both varmints and hunting. The 6mm 55-grain Nosler BT even has a higher ballistic coefficient than the 55-grain, 22 caliber bullet.

[Print]
I would try to contact SSK industries (www.sskindustries.com) they can make pretty much anything.

[Print]
I want a 22-250. I want something unique. The 243 and 308 are common I want something diffrent. I reload for many cartridges also I have (2) 22-250's.
Bullet selection is no problem. I should have stated case head sizes were the same. I just find it strange that with all the cartridges and now the wssm being chambered in the AR's, that one of the most popular varmint cartridges was left out.
Thanks for the reply.

[Print]
As far as going to the wild side and having something built that's unique- why not wildcat on the 6.8 Rem SPC- say neck it down to .224 or .204? If you can draw it, then RCBS can cut it and build it. Me? Someday I want to neck down the 6.5x55 and neck down the 5.7x28 and put them into bolt guns.

[Print]
DPMS makes a.204 and a.243, if you find one in 22-250 let me know, I would love to have one.

[Print]
Just went to DPMS web site and they have a bunch of cals. Even a6.8 Rem.

[Print]
I want something diffrent but I don't want to get custom dies. I want to use the equipment I already have. I just think an AR 22-250 would be an excelent varmint gun. It seems none exist. I want to start with a .243, 260 or 308 if or when I rebarrel it I want to make it a 22-250.

[Print]
You would have to start with a Ar-10 (308) I guess. That would give you the right lower and mags. but then where to get the barrel? I don't know if a 223 could be reamed to take 22-250. The 308 bolt and carrier should still work. I'm sure for the right amount of green some one will do it.

[Print]
It is physically impossible to have a higher balistic coefficient in a larger diameter bullet of the same weight and shape assumming that both bullets are constructed of the same material lead/copper.

The 308 case and the 22-250 case have identical bases which would offer an excellent starting point to build a rifle from.

Gas port size and or bolt spring may have to be modified to properly cycle the action.

[Print]
I thought the pressures of the 243 and 22-250 wuold be close enough where the gas port and spring would functon properly. Pressures are in mid 40's.

[Print]
Close to equal pressures may not pose a problem with port size but recoil on the spring may. Consider rate and weight of recoil, semi autos are calibrated to the specific cartridge, the differences may be slight but significant to properly cycle the action. A 243 will deliver a higher VOLUME of spike pressure gases than a 22-250.

A good place to start is the original spring, too light a spring and the cartridge will not spend enought time in the chamber. This would not be good, even dangerous. Research on spring rates would help.

[Print]
So why wouldn't drilling and tapping a hole into the front of the gas block to insert a pointy bolt to create a needle valve be as effective as having a whole slew of buffer springs? Wasn't eratic behavior on the gas system between different loads the chief complaint with the AR in .243?

[Print]
The gas system is prone to carbon fouling.
The pointy bolt you mention is in effect a needle valve, which is very susceptible to fouling.

You'd have to use a design that is prone to blowing any fouling out and self-cleaning. The FAL's gas system is an example of one such adjustable gas system. There are a number of adjustable gas blocks available for the AR, though I have no experience with them.

[Print]
I guess if I do decide on this project I'll have to call the manufacture and find out what would be necessary. I am realy suprised no one has done it yet,as the 22-250 is a popular varmint round. It's realy great to get everyones take on this idea. I'm not going to give up on the idea. I'll have to do a lot more research. I shoot bolt actions only and want an AR in a varmint or target configuration. I would like a Rock River but they do not have the 308 out yet.
Again I realy appreciate all the responses I recieved.
Thanks Tom

[Print]
originally posted by dneuf
It is physically impossible to have a higher balistic coefficient in a larger diameter bullet of the same weight and shape assumming that both bullets are constructed of the same material lead/copper.

I don't know the fine details of why, though the published BCs of the 55 grain 22 cal bullet and the 55 grain 6mm bullet show the 6mm bullet to have a higher number.

I would guess that Nosler made the 6mm bullet a bit longer, which means that the HP cavity would be larger. To verify, one could check the sectional density.

[Print]
He's not done yet. He's got other options:

http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=browse&view....-UR-223
http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=browse&view....-UR-243

223 or 243 WSSM uppers for standard AR's. Sound familiar, HB?

I had one for a bit, but unloaded it, pun intended, onto a bud because the blast and reloading expense was just too much for me.

BTW, you can have higher BC at higher speeds if you use a large amount of air, plastic, or something lighter than lead in the tip of the bullet to streamline it and make it longer. VMAX's do this quite well. Compare the BC of a 50 grain VMAX to a 50 grain soft tip.

WYK

[Print]
Those WSSMs are real screamers in 22 and 24 caliber! The short/fat case design has some inherent advantages over a long/skinny case.

Once-fired brass is not all that tough to come by, either.
I certainly would want to be using a brass catcher when shooting it, though. WSSM brass is a whole lot more expensive than 223/5.56 brass!

[Print]
Are the WSSM AR's set up on the AR-10 platform or AR-15? I wouldn't mind seeing the 6.8 Rem SPC necked down to .22, 6mm, and maybe .25 cal and chambered in an AR.

Has anyone had any appreciable luck with AI-ing (not Artificial Insemination for you cattle ranching types) AR chambers?

[Print]
Olympic arms has these rifles; they also sell uppers in these calibers designed to be used on standard AR15-type lowers.

Using 'Improved' calibers in semi-autos is a tricky thing. The sharp shoulder and almost complete lack of case body taper make this a difficult thing to make work.

Also - 'Improved' chambers are, by definition, able to fire off-the-shelf ammunition from the parent caliber. To do this properly, the chamber must be cut a bit short in the headspace dimension. This almost ensures that standard ammunition will not reliably chamber in a semi-auto action. This is not a problem for a typical bolt-action rifle since there is much more force available to close the bolt.

I'm sure someone has tried chambering an AR-type rifle in an Improved caliber, though it is certainly not a common thing.

cheap .224 bullets?

[Print]
does anyone know where to find cheap bullets?I get supplies from midway usa midsouth, natchez and jsc. but there must be some place cheaper. please help

[Print]
Huntingtons may be just a tad cheaper than Midway- but not by much. And I didn't see where they sell in lots larger than 100.

http://www.huntingtons.com

[Print]
Check the reloading supplies heading in Shotgun News. They have a lot of FMJ bullets VERY cheap.

[Print]
The margin on bullets is pretty thin so you probably won't see much difference in prices from one place to another. If you can find them locally on sale that is probably one of your best bets since it won't have the shipping that you would pay if you order them somewhere. Be careful of FMJ bullets since they like to bounce around a while instead of flying to pieces like the frangible bullets. This causes them to carry a lot further and are less safe if you are in an area with populations. Good luck in your hunt.

[Print]
Gezzer, have you tried the Midway USA's "dogtown" or Barnes' "Varmin-A-Tor" bullets both available through Midway? I've gotten excellent results with both in the 55gr. weights. They aren't as accurate as "v-max" and "ballistic tips", but they shoot very consistent and are more than efficient enough at the terminal end of their flight. They are also priced about $1 or $2 less per 100 than the plastic- tipped bullets.

[Print]
I USED BOTH LAST YEAR,50grainers, they both shot real good out of my junk! I HAVE 2 788 REMINGTONS IN .223 AND 22-250 AND A SAVAGE MODEL 10 IN .223.THEY SHOOT BETTER THAN I CAN HOLD THEM! DID YOU USE DOGTOWNS IN A 22-250? I DIDNT I USED THE BARNES BULLETS FOR IT. I ALSO BOUGHT SOME 6MM BARNES VARMINATORS I THINK THEY WERE 72 GRAINERS, THEY SHOT OK BUT I FOUND 11 OUT OF A THOUSAND THAT WERE WRINKLED. THANKS GEZZER

[Print]
I used both the dogtown and varmin-a-tors in my M77VT .22-250REM. Both shot nearly as good as the poly-tips, but I didn't moly-coat them. They might do better if treated...I'll try that when the weather breaks here.

stupid ....?

[Print]
what is a bput?

[Print]
Bio-degradeable Pop-Up Target. Shoot them to your hearts content, leave them where they fall, and nature will handle the rest. It's bound to put all sorts of good nutrients into the soil.

[Print]
wow! do you think they drag off their dead? or are they that fast, to get in it [the hole] before they die? we hit alot more than we find. whats your take?

[Print]
Do a afternoon shot and go back in the morning, you'll find crow's, owl's, buzzards, just about anything that will scavenge there. Let alone the night time critters. Heck the crows and buzzards show up when your still shooting and wait for you to leave.

[Print]
"Do they drag off their dead?" Good question. I've wondered about the same thing. I seldom take shots much over 400yds (some guys here report being comfortable at 600+) but even at my distances on a radius of 150 degrees or so- that leaves a whole lot of area to search for little furry bodies. A buddy of mine says that sometimes they kinda go canabalistic- so yeah, I guess dragging off their dead is a plausable scenario if that's the case. Being fast enough for very many of them to crawl back into a hole before dying doesn't seem all that plausable to me. When a critter gets hit hard enough with a V-Max or TNT to blow pieces and parts off- I just don't see em doing much crawling. I wonder if we could get those guys from Myth Busters to take up Mutt Mashing?

During a particularly dry summer snap, we were on a smallish town about 250yds wide by probably about 7/8 mi long. We worked from north to south and when we were still shooting at the south end, a yote came out into the open of the north end and grabbed himself a happy meal. There wasn't a safe backdrop to shoot to the north (only east and south) so he got a freebie for a while. Just before nightfall, I set up on an old set of drills (plow looking things that plant seeds for any non-farmer types) and waited for him to get greedy and come back for seconds. I goobered that shot but did manage to take a right front leg off at the knee joint.

We don't have very many buzzards here (aside from the one I work for). Is it legal to shoot those?

[Print]
originally posted by Huffmo:
When a critter gets hit hard enough with a V-Max or TNT to blow pieces and parts off- I just don't see em doing much crawling.

You can't always get a solid shot on prairie rats, and even on some 'good' shots I sometimes see them drag themselves toward (and into) their hole. This is when a good, accurate semi-auto shines; you can take a quick follow-up shot.

originally posted by Huffmo:
We don't have very many buzzards here (aside from the one I work for). Is it legal to shoot those?

Vultures are protected in the US, though I'm not sure about the 'employer' sub-species.

best factory ammo?

[Print]
Does anyone have an idea what the best (most accurate) factory loaded ammunition that you can buy? price is no issue but i cant reload because i am at college and my bud thinks he can outshoot me and i want an edge on him when we finally find out! hehe.....thanx

[Print]
Well, that's a loaded question. (I've always wanted to say that)
Every weapon likes something different. But I guess if you want a place to start- Black Hills has shown good results for a lot of folks. But then again, we don't know what you're shooting, twist, etc-- not that it matters immensely since 'every weapon may like something different'. How much time do you have to try differrent loads by different manufacturers?

[Print]
I agree. Black Hills is the best place to start for factory ammo.

[Print]
Now that is a good question. There are a lot of things that affect a particular rounds performance in a particular firearm. Basically you are looking for a round to be accurate, consistant, terminal, safe, and with necessary range. So what exactly affects these factors? Lets assume the ammo is good, as in, it does its part to accomplish these goals. That leaves the firearm itself. In the firearm you have the chamber, action, throat, rifling, crown, barrel length, etc. All of these can affect how a round fires. Now you can do something about many of these but not others like the throat, rifling, etc. Of those that are practical to do something about you have to decide which ones will get you the most bang for your buck. You can have your bolt face trued up, barrel worked over (bedded, floated, crowned, etc), etc. Naturally we are talking about accurizing your rifle. The reason I bring it up is that no matter how good your ammo is, if your rifle isn't doing its part it won't matter what you run through it. One thing you might consider, though it is somewhat controversial is tuning your barrel. Essentially when you fire the barrel vibrates at a particular frequency and if you can tune it so that the bullet leaves just before the barrel is dead center in that vibration then you can improve the accuracy. This can be done a couple ways. There are products such as the BOSS system (see http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3....4914329) or barrel tuners such as the accurizer (see http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/snpg1.htm). No matter what round you shoot you can tune the barrel to improve its performance. Give them some consideration. Remember, these have their followers/detractors. Do your research and see what you think. If you want to get an edge, this might be the way to do it. A good rifle paired with good ammo will give your bud a run for his money.

[Print]
OK.... In the event that you're in the current state of most college students I've known and don't have the luxury of large sums of money at hand, tend to eat a few more boxes of mac-n-cheese and Top Ramen than you really care for, and are pretty much tickled silly that your truck stays in a continuous state of 'run' for an entire semester at a time- try to spend some range time, try several different brands and weights, really work on your basic skills (breathing, hold, trigger movement, follow through, etc), go with what works best, have fun, and good luck.

Sometimes a guy just has to dance with what he brung.

[Print]
there is another, possible option....

With the size if this community, there's a fairly decent chance that there's someone here within driving distance of your college with a reloading bench set up. There's even a good chance that said person might even have dies, brass and bullets for the gun in question....

But you'll have to ask.

[Print]
Coyote50, if you really want to WIN??? Buy a box of your buddy's caliber ammo. in the Wolf brand, and a box of your caliber ammo. in the Wolf brand and one in Black Hills or Hornady premium. Then take the Wolf rounds out of the Wolf box and through them in a river somewhere. Put your Black Hills or Hornady rounds in the Wolf box and go to the range and WIN! {My basketball coach in high school was an ass but he did teach me one thing -- "If you can't win fair, cheat!"} Tell your buddy you both have to use the same ammo. brand to be fair and you thought you'd buy the ammo. to be nice because you are going to WIN the case of beer (or Ramen noodles) or whatever. If you go for handguns I have a super trick to win when shooting revolvers just let me know. Remember, well constructed hand loads will out perform even the best factory ammo. 99% of the time in a particular rifle. Accuracy Sports

[Print]
Be the better man. Win honestly, fairly, and with the dignity of a good sportsman and an ethical shooter. If the other guy has a major tricked out rig- then agree on even standards (borrow two similar firearms). If you can't compete with integrity- then take up another sport.

[Print]
Well here is the situation,im in crookston MN, i have a ruger m77 mkII varmint in 308. my buddy has a 270 savage that is just a regular model field gun that he shoots fair with. i know there are a lot of bad things said about ruger but i have had very good luck with mine and shoot sub moa at 200 yards with it. i normally shoot 165 grain ballistic tip bullets. if this helps any more please let me know.
P.S. if worse comes to worse i still have my fifty cal that i can cover his holes completely with.

[Print]
Well OK... The question is "Who's the better shooter?" and not "Who has the better rifle?" Right? OK, each of you shoot four 5 shot strings (typical box of ammo is 20 rnds) then switch rifles and shoot another four strings of 5. Then, it's just a matter of figgerin each of your averages.
Keep notes on ammo, performance, weather, all the rifle specs- and let us know the results. You have the oportunity to perform a fairly decent sterile test that could benefit other shooters who may be having the same questions or are considering buying either one of the above mentioned firearms. Just encourage all folks envolved to be ethical- that's the cornerstone of shooting sports.

[Print]
Hey Huffmo, I am sooooo sorry for pushing your integrity button. I thought it was two pals working on basically -- out shooting each other. I thought whoever won, if there was indeed ever a competition, would just razz the other guy until the next competition. {If there was a case of beer riding on the outcome, I would imagine the pals would do their duty and help each other consume the winner's spoils.} My comments were more or less an unrealistic joke. Sorry I didn't communicate my thought more clearly. Starting now, I will start writing in at length to the Seekers ... about what is the best scope I can't afford and what rifle my dad should buy me when I get my license... From now on, it will be only ethics and integrity out of my computer. I have to sign off now and go to confession.

[Print]
Yes you should do penance!! I think a fitting one would be to sell me all your rifles for $50, then all will be forgiven.

MP7

[Print]
Anyone see Weaponalage or whatever that show was this week. H&K have come up with a pretty cool one. I just caught the end of it and would like to see the whole story. It's shooting a 4.??, is this the .19 cal?

[Print]
It sounds like you mean the MP7A1. Its a 4.6mm X 30mm round with 4 variants from steel tips to tracers. Its principle is similar to the FN 5.7 X 28. They both use small fast moving bullets with steel tips to penetrate body armor and so forth. They have their pros and cons but are interesting. I'm looking at the 5.7 myself. If you are a fan of the Stargate TV series they use the FN P90 (uses the 5.7 round). I have a calendar from HK that has the MP7A1 in it. Looks pretty cool. I'll have to consider the HK too. As for 19 cal, as far as I know 4.6mm is 18.11 cal so I don't know, my math could be whacked. I seem to remember that cal= ??mm*100/25.4

Anyone else use a 243/06 wildcat Rifle?

[Print]
I recently loaded some Sierra 80 gr. Blitz bullets for coyotes for my 243/06 but it has been sub zero in WI so I haven't even sighted it in yet. The core & jacket of the 87 gr V-max bullets would ocassionally separate in mid flight. It has a 1 in 10 twist, 1 in 12 would have been better.

I am going to try 6MM 100 gr. Speer Grand Slam bullets in this old wildcat rifle that I had built in the mid 1960's. All I have to do now, is neck size 25/06 cases & they fireform perfect.

At 72, I don't do as much hunting these days, except for deer & when the weather is okay I'll try to spot coyotes. My uncle used to shoot over 100 Red fox during the winter, many of'em on the run, with a 220 Swift & with the 40 gr bullet.

What 6mm bullets do you gurus like for coyotes?
Some say, the 6mm 55 gr bullets are a bit light with too low a SD for coyote shoulder hits. udarrell

http://www.udarrell.com/243-06-wildcat-80-blitz.html

CZ mag problems

[Print]
I couldn't find the old line where someone was unable to load out to the lands on a .223 because of COL not fitting in the mag. Well I might have the answer,it's that calhoon guy again. I bought some of his 52gn. double hps and they are so stubby I can load all 5 AR uppers .010 off with no mag problems. So of course I had to check the CZ and it's good to go also. I tried a 5 shot group at100 yards and all holes touched but one (operater error) That was with the new AR bought from jinks44 last week. Nice work jinks:-)

Get your gun books at the Shooters' Bookshelf

varmint hunting, prairie dogs, coyotes, shooting, rifles, long range shooting

v 2.5.0c