Seekers of the Red Mist (SRM) -- Varmint Hunting

Resources

Photo Album

This is always a work in progress
Hate Mail

Hot Tips

from the list Varmint Hunters Assoc's
Landowner Courtesy Sheet

Members pages

Shooting Books

Links

Need Help? havoc@harrisdev.com

Index of all threads

Seekers of the Red Mist (SRM) on Facebook

Seekers of the Red Mist
(Varmint Hunting Discussion)

RE2.5 beta

General Discussion

	1 Classified Ads Coffee Events (7/0/0) (1 folders) Gear (60/0/0) Handloading (537/0/0) (2 folders) Humor Hunting wheels (20/0/0) Long guns (435/0/0) (1 folders) Misc (84/0/0) (3 folders) MostDangerous (29/0/0)	Optics (110/0/0) (2 folders) Photo Album (36/0/0) Politics (229/0/0) Predators (177/0/0) Short guns (72/0/0) species-specific varmints (73/0/0) (2 folders) Technology (13/0/0) Wildcat Rounds (111/0/0) (1 folders) ~FAQ ~Suggestion Box (44/0/0)

Ruger 243

[Print]
Hola Amgos, I was wondering if anyone has had the same problem I am having with my Ruger KM77R II .243 Win. light weight? It will shoot pretty good with hand loads, like a .499" group, then after I have fired around 5-6 shots the point of impact starts to wander. Not lots, like 1.250" groups, but enough to take away my confidence in hitting smaller targets at distance. I bought it because I didn't want to lug around my Remington VLS in .243 while coyote hunting on foot. Maybe I will have to grow some more muscle and put the Ruger up for my granddaughter's first deer rifle. The Remington weights around 12 pounds with scope and bi-pod, the Ruger with scope and bi-pod around 8 pounds. Let me know what you think could be the problem with the expanding groups.

[Print]
I have a 77 II (bought it new) and have the same problem. I called Ruger tech and they said if it shoots 1 in. groups at 75 yards its a good shooter. (lost my faith in Ruger rifles) I bought it cuz a friend has one, his is much older and when we compared the two the old barrel was noticably larger, it was still a standard barrel. I think they just get hot and start to drift. Another friend has a mod 70 Win. that has a pencil barrel, same thing for him.

[Print]
Same thing here. I used to own a ruger M77 and gave it to my son. It was a .243 but we re-barreled it to 7mm-08(light weight barrel). The groups also tend to open up when the barrel gets warm. I also have a winchester Mod 70 with a light barrel and the same thing happens to this rifle. I'm thinking of rebarreling to a heavier barrel but keeping it 7.62 NATO any thoughts on the type of barrel that I should use?

[Print]
There are a couple things you can do to get away from wandering shots as the barrel heats up -

Cryo-treat the barreled action.
This stress-relieves the barrel. Internal stress in the barrel is a significant cause of your bullets walking the target as the barrel gets hotter.

Pillar bed the action and free-float the barrel.
A solid bedding job is critical to consistent accuracy. If the action shifts around in the stock from shot to shot, accuracy suffers.
A free-floated barrel will help consistency. How the barrel vibrates upon shooting will affect where the bullet goes. Free-floating the barrel helps eliminate inconsistent influences from touching the stock.

Unless you can do all this by yourself (its not too tough), you may be better served by having a good gunsmith replace the barrel while they are bedding, free-floating and cryo-treating.
Factory barrels cost well under $100 to produce. They may be very rough inside, which leads to heavy fouling. They may not be straight. They often have significant internal stresses. They may be chambered off-center. Quality control has suffered in the past several years... its expensive!

If you want to ensure a consistent sub-MOA rifle, you can get lucky with a factory gun, or you can spend another $500-$600 on a barrel & bed job and be confident that it will shoot to your point-of-aim.

[Print]
some times you get a good one, and it shoots good right out of the box, and then you will get some that take a lot of rounds to break in. I bought three Savage 243 rifles last year before I found a keeper. First one was a Savage Model 11 F 243, IT didnt like me at all and it found a new home, second was a Savage Model 11 F 243 also, but still not what I wanted, so traded for a Savage Model 14 American Classic 243. This one likes the 58 grain V-Max Moly Hornandy.

[Print]
I have "more than a few" standard weight and heavy barrelled rigs and they all shoot progressively worse as they heat up. Usually a vertical rise in the shot string is noticed. One thing helpful is to never shoot to the point where the barrel gets uncomfortable to grab in front of the chamber below the objective lens of the scope. The other thing I find extremely helpful in this situation is to pre-treat the bore with moly paste and shoot moly coated bullets exclusively. I know...The moly debate rolls on...but it really does work for me. I have a wonderfully accurate M77VTMKII .22-250 that will shoot uncoated bullets great (.75"/5 shots), but coated bullets even better. This is out of a factory barrel. I can also produce these groups over and over without cleaning in between. The reduced friction of the moly not only keeps the barrel cooler-but cleaner, as the powder residue doesn't stick to the bore. Give it a try first-It's a heck of a lot cheaper than taking it to a 'smith for work that may be un-necessary. Good Luck and keep us posted on how it goes!

North Utah Hunters

[Print]
Does anyone know of any prarie dog hunters in the perry/brigham city area?

moly coating

[Print]
bullets and barrels, I found a site earlier that stated moly was only for small calibers, 224, etc. Will it be safe to say you could also find a place for it in 30-06, and 300 mag?

[Print]
the moly debate goes on forever.............its a lubricant, that, at least nobody will argue.A lot of cast bullets in big flavors like 45-70,45-90,45-120, 50-140 use an nra formula lubricant, beeswax,alox and moly all mixed up around their massive lube rings both with black powder and smokeless. So,it is used in big calibers. Now the question is what happens in big calibers at horrific speed with moly?
I don't see where it could hurt anything except maybe bonding to your bore for eternity.....
The jury is out.........

[Print]
I've been a huge fan of moly for some time now. I use it in my .22-250 and .243 religiously and last year I started using it in my .308. It works just as well in the 30 cal. as it does in my smaller cals., making for superb accuracy and super easy cleaning. One little suggestion here...always pre-lube the bore with a small amount of moly paste prior to shooting or you'll never really see the true usefullness of the bullet coating.

[Print]
Indeed the moly debate goes on and on, like the energizer bunny. I have nothing against it at all and I've heard just about every argument there is (I think). The main one that seems to hold ground is that when you shoot moly you get layers of buildup in the barrel. One layer of copper, then moly, then copper etc (plus powder too but you get the idea). The point is you need to clean the bore until you get it all out. While at the SHOT show last week I talked with just about everyone related to guns. The guys pushing cleaners were interesting. They all claimed that they sent it to the troops in Afghanista/Iraq and the troops love it. So, they all claim the same thing, hmmm. Sales is sales I guess. The one I really liked was Tetragun. They have a guy that travels the world cleaning peoples guns with the products and its impressive stuff. I'm going to look them up and try them out. You need to use it with good ventilation but then again, if you open a bottle of Butches the stench will clear a room in 10 seconds. Anyway, the moly debate will rage on for some time. I'd heard that SWAT snipers were switching to it due to first shot accuracy. I'd like to hear from them about the benefits of moly...

[Print]
originally posted by hoghntr-PA
...always pre-lube the bore with a small amount of moly paste prior to shooting or you'll never really see the true usefullness of the bullet coating.

I agree. Pre-moly the bore. Do not rely on moly coming off bullets to coat the bore because this process takes too many shots. The 1st bullets to go down the bore don't have enough moly and they lay down copper.

After cleaning I use a dry, tight patch with dry moly powder. I burnish the bore with this to make sure the bore is well coated before shooting.

[Print]
HB is right moly bullets alone will not coat the bore. I learned this through experiance. You must coat the rifle bore first, than use moly bullets. The only thing moly realy helps is fouling. I use moly on all my guns and only give them a REAL cleaning if accuracy drops or the end of shooting season. I use bore snakes for most cleaning or a patch rapped around a nylon brush.

Dallas Fort Worth Area

[Print]
I am getting ready to move to the DFW area and looking for some places to shoot. Any help much appreciated....

Tom Jones

bore cleaning question

[Print]
My son has an 8 x 57 JS that my father had sporterised from a WW2 rifle. We went shooting last weekend and he didn't have a cleaning rod ETC so I brought the gun home with me. He wanted to clean it this weekend but I didn't want to go that long without running some hoppies and some oil through the bore. What is the general convention on this?

[Print]
Was it shot with military surplus ammo(corrosive) or new commercial ammo?

If it was shot with corrosive ammo a week ago and it still hasn't been cleaned, you might as well buy a new barrel and have it screwed in. Don't bother with trying to clean the old one.

If it was new ammo(commercial stuff like Remington), I wouldn't worry too much about it.

BTW, the easiest and fastest way to clean after shooting corrosive ammo is to squirt some Windex(with ammonia) on a patch and run it through the bore. Run 3-5 patches like that through the bore, then a couple dry ones. Then use your favorite oil. check it in a few days, but it's normally not necessary to clean again.

[Print]
I agree with the windex- but I would hesitate to pull your bbl until you look it over and shoot it again. I swab both of mine down with Kroil and have never noted a problem. A guy I work with has a Turk that looks like it's been run through the ringer and he swears up and down that he hasn't cleaned it since he cleaned the cosmoline out of it 300+ rounds ago. It never was a great shooter- but a whole lot better than I would've expected from Turk reputations. It still shoots as good 2wks ago as it did 6 mos ago. He's shooting Yugo and Romanian surplus fodder. I wouldn't recomend this practice, and maybe it has something to do with a lack of humidity we have here, but I wouldn't ditch your bbl just yet. Be sure to clean the bolt face well when you clean- a look at old Mausers' bolt faces will show you a ring. I suspect it's either from gasses, the corrosive primer mix, or both. Good luck.

[Print]
The ammo was new Sellier & Bellot and not corrosive so I am sure I am alright, I would not want to not clean the bore for more than a couple of weeks at any rate. Thanks for the input.

[Print]
Just my 2 cents: A clean rifle is an accurate rifle. The guy who got me interested in long range rifle shooting drummed this home to me, and his info. was on point. On a new rifle I'd shoot five rounds then run a patch of Sweet's 7.62 and let it soak a few minutes, then run a bristle brush through, then run a few dry patches. Now we could go shoot again, a few more rounds and it was back to the cleaning procedure. I could go on and on about how many times he had me cleaning my new rifles but in the end it worked. My rifles hold good groups and keeping the bore clean is now second nature...it still amazes me how much dirt comes out of a rifle after just several rounds.

[Print]
I might as well add my 2 cents too. I agree, a clean rifle is important. When I'm in the field I like to take cleaning supplies along. However, if I go walking to setup shots I have enough to do with carrying the rifle, ammo, etc without taking the cleaning kit. I either have to sacrifice some accuracy or take something so I at least slip a bore snake in my pocket. It isn't the greatest but get you by in a pinch. My only comment is each situation is different. Different bores, different ammo, etc are all variables so some rifles will gunk up faster than others. My 250 with Varget seems to do ok for 50 rounds or so. On the other hand my friends mini 14 needs cleaning any time you even think about firing it.

[Print]
Woodsman-
An outfit called Otis makes a dandy cleaning kit that is quite small and tote-aroundable. I ended up with one in Iraq but still opted to stick with what was familiar, which was the regular GI issue M-16 kit. Both are small, handy, pocket size, and have solvent and oil bottles contained within.

[Print]
The Otis products are good. I found them at http://www.otisgun.com/cgistore/store.cgi?pa....cart_id The price looks ok as well. Looks like it should slip into a backpack pretty easily. Thanks for the tip. Looks like a good kit, one that is designed for this. Let me tell you about a kit that was not, and the experience resulting from it. I call it the tale of two companies.
It was the best of kits, it was the worst of kits....ok quit gagging, I'll drop the literary butchery:-) Anyway, I put together a pseudo mini cleaning kit. It had a smallish container with jags, rods, solvent, oil, brushes, etc. Pretty much the usual stuff. The rub came with the small bottle of Butches Bore Shine and the Hoppes Elite gun oil. Both good products but terrible packaging for this purpose. I put the kit together and set it aside to take with me the next time I went out. When I picked up the kit and opened it I discovered that both the solvent and oil had leaked quite profusely, making a huge stinky mess.
I called the distributors of Butches and they said they were working on the lids (it’s a childproof lid that has issues). They sent me a new larger bottle for no charge, without my even asking for them to. The Hoppes distributors on the other hand were quite different. I sent a message to them via their web site asking them to please do something about their bottle caps/lids. I received no apologies, no acknowledgement of my request, nothing at all. After about 3 weeks I figured I should call in case they had issues with their web system. The lady I talked to wasn’t unfriendly to be exact but not exactly what I would place in a customer service role. I explained the issue and asked that they evaluate their lids and instead of ‘Thanks we’ll check them out.” or something similar I got a bunch of questions regarding my competency with closing lids and whatnot. Now Hoppes makes some good products but their customer service leaves a lot to be desired. Sadly, I think a person would be better to deal with wherever you buy their products if you have an issue rather than dealing with them directly. Another lesson is if you do something like this but sure to test your bottles for leaks when lying down.

[Print]
I was trying to remember if there is a difference between the CLP (Breakfree) that Uncle Sweet gave us and what is offered out here in the civilian world. I may be wrong, but I am of the opinion that Breakfree is a fine product that would serve as both a cleaner, lubricant, AND protectant. I don't know if I'd use it exclusively, but it sure seemed to do OK on Mk 19's, M2's, M203's, and just about everything else we had while we were out of and in between regular base camps. Now that I'm back home- I only use Kroil, Rem Oil, and mineral oil (for preservation of old patina-ed finishes) on everything from my antiques to my AR's.

Usually, the only gripes with Kroil is that it takes a lot more elbow grease to get out lead. But it's very seldom that I shoot lead ball anymore, so that isn't much of an issue. The other gripe was... well dang, I can't remember what it was. Anyhow, Kroil seeps in and lifts out the funk- whether it's from the bbl or bolt parts. And, it does not strip and purge bbl pores- which will require you to take fewer fouling shots. I tend to take issue with running a product down my bores that desolves copper, lead, and who knows what else. Sure, Hoppes and other things have been used a lot longer than I've been around- but when a product eats and disolves my bronze and brass cleaning brushes- I reserve the right to hold firm to the notion that there just may be something better and less aggressive. Thank goodness we all have choices still- right?

[Print]
I too, used to be concerened about the "One product does it all" solvents. I finally read on some benchrest forums and on Dan Lilja's site about Butch's and decided if the guys who were putting massive $ into firearms were using it, then its probably not damaging them or they wouldn't use it. My only complaint about Butch's is the stench. If you spill any of it you could clear a room of people in 10 seconds flat. I like really good ventilation when using it. But like you say, thank God we still have choices. Choices we wouldn't have if not for soldiers. Can't thank them enough. How does CLP seem to work in high moisture areas? Here in the Seattle area it seems everything needs to be coated to the nth degree or its all over.

[Print]
High moisture areas? Wow- hafta think on that one. I haven't been in a soggy place since '90 or '91. If I recall, we used CLP when I was stationed in Hawaii- I don't recall seeing rust or creepy-funkies in our 60's or 1911's. But still, I don't think HI is near as bad as your area. Personally, I wouldn't be affraid to at least try it on a piece of test scrap steel (cheap and worn out kitchen knives from pawn shops and junk stores work well for that sort of thing.) A controlled test like that, in an area like yours, might be quite an eye opener for us all.

[Print]
I'm begining to change my concept of cleaning and gun care. Its a long story but I talked with a log of gun cleaner dealers last week and I'm finding several to be less satisfactory now, and I want to try out a few more (Tetragun for one). I liked the Otis kits I saw but I think I'll end up with different chemicals. One thing I noticed for my high moisture issue was VCI technology. Its a chemical used to stop moisture from rusting out your firearms. I got a sample of one chemical and a "GunSoc" which is a sock that is impregnated with some vci chemicals that you slip your rifle into. I'll give them a try and see what happens. Time will tell. I think I'll start a thread sometime regarding cleaning. If I get some time I'll have to try that test too.

[Print]
The Otis kits are very versatile and functional. Most benchresters I know aren't cleaning fanatics. My heavy barrel .308 definitely shoots to a different POI on the first shot out of a clean barrel.

[Print]
Yeah- most of them aren't big on cleaning- except for one guy around here went all nuts over it a couple of years ago. He hasn't been in the top of anything since, even ruined a few bbls including a real sweet 195? M1 bbl.

[Print]
That's strange - most benchresters I know are quite concerned with keeping things clean.
They do have to be good at it since it is not hard to degrade a barrel with over cleaning, or improper cleaning.

[Print]
Maybe I should have said "Around here"- and, maybe that's why not many of our local crowd gets very far up in regionals or state match standings. When I was shooting BR- not many of us went to harsh chemical extremes- they're the ones that introduced me to Kroil and fewer fouling shots.

SHOT show anyone?

[Print]
Hi, Is anyone going to the SHOT show this week? There's info at http://www.shotshow.com

lw

[Print]
One of my (web) clients will be there all week. I need to figure out a way to go with him next time it's in Orlando, I guess. ;)

http://www.thecopshop.org/ <-- that's my client who's there.

[Print]
Hmmm, I'll have to check them out to see if I talked with them. The SHOT show is interesting. It’s slated to be back in Vegas for the next 9 years however so I wouldn't hold my breath for Orlando. In addition I heard grumbling all over the place from people that really wished it were in Vegas again. Next year it is going to be in Vegas during super bowl weekend. That should prove interesting. If you go, take really comfortable shoes. The show space was 680,000 sq feet with 13 miles of aisles. On the positive side I handled dozens of guns and met quite a few interesting people. Not bad overall.

Timney Trigger Installed!

[Print]
After getting my trigger in from Midsouth, I had to wait a month or two to put it in, because Weatherby had a safety recall on their bolts, and my gun fell under the description of the recall. Got the bolt back three days ago, and proceeded into taking apart my gun. After taking out the old trigger, I installed the new one with no trouble. Worked the bolt, put in an empty cartridge, the safety worked, but the fire didn't. It wouldn't go all the way forward! My Dremel took care of that, although I had to sand away quite a bit of wood on the inside of the gun. That trigger is the sweetest trigger I have ever pulled, breaking at somewhere around 3 lbs. (I haven't measured it yet). It is as crisp as can be! Well, Happy New Years everone, and happy shootin'!

[Print]
Hope you have fun with it. I got my first one about 5 years ago and been slowely converting the rest of the arsenal to Timney. They make a great product.

[Print]
Man, you ain't kidding. Here's a pick of a group that I shot today with my Weatherby Vanguard .270 Win. with factory Hornady Custon 130 gr. SST ($19 at Gander Mountain) I am MORE than impressed. (.4375 in.)

Edit Note: This was shot off the hood of my dad's car with some sandbags.)

Awesome Group.jpg (34.7 kb)

[Print]
nice.

[Print]
Thanks, I'm definitely happy.

[Print]
Darned fine shootin what yardage??

[Print]
100 yards on the dot. I think we're gunna build a real solid bench and concrete it into mother earth and find a place where we can shoot 50, 100, and 200 yard shots. But yeah, this particular group was at 100 yards. I got it laminated...

[Print]
as I said nice shootin,,don't know where your at but around here I would say build a roof over yer bench also,,its a tad moist in the midwest

[Print]
Its not TOO bad in the Midsouth, but that's what we were planning on doing. Hopefully it'll turn out ok.

Merry Christmas 06

[Print]
Tell us about all the new toys and goodies you got this year. I picked up a 270 win in a M-700 Rem w/muzzel break.

[Print]
My son got me a Walther Bull Pup,,P-22,,22lr semi auto built in lazer 3x9x40 scope,,action is in the stock,, haven't shot it yet but it looks cool,,oh yeh has a case too,,what a good boy

[Print]
Sounds like fun to me. I havent shot my 270 yet eather, but I hope to have it ready to bag deer with next season. The last deer I took was with my 6mm Rem. using 100gr sp. It did a suprising good job, but it's hard to not shoot streight through the animals. Have fun burning up thoes .22's.

[Print]
Being the wonderful person that I am, I bought myself a Remington 540XB to set up for 50m Running Target. It was used- but not much. Was even outfitted with Redfield apperature and globe. Managed to get it for about half of what they've been showing up for on GunsAmerica and other internet places. Yeah, I still acted overjoyed over the package of underwear my bride got me, bless her heart.

[Print]
The best way to get what you want is to buy it your self. The Boy's and I got it across to my Wife 15yrs ago that SOCKS, ect were not! Christmas presents and were not! to be wraped up and put under the tree. LOL Think about it, next anaversery, could you get away with saying "sorry Hony they were all out of dimond earings so I bought you these skivies" LOL

[Print]
Yep, no socks here either. Got the Mss a 20ga al391 as an early Xmas gift. Just couldn't see her struggling with the 12ga 870 anymore deer hunting. Got me a RRA coyote and a FX5 to chase critters around here with.

Socks and underwear will be forgotten in weeks. We will remember this Xmas for a long time.

Bunnys

[Print]
Is it just me, or is anyone else noticing a very large population of little furry bunnys? After all the snow we got here in Colorado they sort of stick out. Seems to be large groups all over the area.

[Print]
My beagles would be in heaven,,ain't hardly no bunnies left round here,,yotes I spose done em in,,heck if the dogs find one to run I ain't got the heart to shoot the lil buggers

P Dogs

[Print]
Looking for places to hunt P Dogs next year in Colorado, New Mexico, or West Texas. Anyone have any info to share.

[Print]
Southeast colorado has some good areas. Look in the area between Lamar and Las Animas, and south down by Kim. The BLM land still holds a ton of rats, you just need to do some legwork to contact the lease holder to get permission. Don't worry about the game wardens down there they understand and sympathize with the livestock owners. Besides its a great way to scout for quail.

[Print]
Appreciate the info. Been going to kansas but the state is putting pressure on the rancher to exterminate his dogs. Too many complaints from neighbors dogs migrating on to their properties. Being from Deming N.M. pickings are pretty slim here.

[Print]
(I just posted this in the Classifieds, sorry to re-post) I live in the TX panhandle and can tell you that one good way to meet farmers and ranchers is to frequent the Dairy Queen or other cafe in the smaller towns. You'd be amazed what gets done up here over a cup of coffee. If they like you, they'll let you.

[Print]
I live in the Tx Panhandle too (Amarillo). Just a thought, has anybody ever had any luck meeting with County Extention Agents?

Get your gun books at the Shooters' Bookshelf

varmint hunting, prairie dogs, coyotes, shooting, rifles, long range shooting

v 2.5.0c