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Seekers of the Red Mist
(Varmint Hunting Discussion)

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General Discussion

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"upgraded" the SRM

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I decided to move the SRM site over the latest version of the RealizationEngine. I have been using it in production for a long time for a personal site. It's not finished, but it is well tested and stable. It is also more efficient, so putting my busiest RE community on the newer version should reduce the strain on my poor old server.

So, if the site looks different, that's because it's rendered with newer, cleaner, more efficient code, and I think it looks better, too.

Feedback is welcome!

Majorly Inconsistent Results

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I’m a bit puzzled tonight. I took my new Remington 700 SPS chambered in 204 Ruger out today for a sight in and load testing. It turned out to be one of most frustrating experiences of my life. I bore sighted before leaving and the first shot hit about 2” right of POA. Ok so far. A few adjustments on the scope and things seemed fine. Now here’s where it gets strange. It wouldn’t group worth crap. So I switched from the Winchester ammo I was using to Hornady. Suddenly it was grouping fine but about 3 inches to the side and a couple down. So I switched to another Hornady load and it moved to the other side, still grouping fine. Now I’m wondering what the heck is going on so I decided to try each of my workup groups. These were far better but still strange. I had 3 different powders, with 5 different charges per group and 5 rounds per charge, totaling 75 rounds. Interestingly in each of the 3 groups when I shot the lowest charge rounds it grouped fine in one place but when I shot the highest charged rounds they grouped fine but in a completely different place. The natural assumption is this would be normal if the groups are in a vertical line and not too far apart but they definitely were not vertical. The barrel was hot but not real bad as I was giving it cool down periods. I was also cleaning the barrel at various times.
So:
1. If the scope/base/etc were loose or defective it would not group well at all.
2. If it’s the loads then why are the group locations so drastically different?
3. If it’s the loads then why do the light charges group consistently different than the highest charged loads on a non-vertical axis?
Any ideas? I’m at a loss.

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Switching powders and not cleaning the barrel has given me major fits in the past. I don't even try this anymore because all bets are off as far as grouping, accuracy, or any kind of consistency goes.
I'll bet this is one of your problems.

Another issue could be pressure points between your barrel and stock. This can cause strange POI changes that make no sense. Free-floating the barrel will remove this possible source if inconsistency (if you have not done this yet).

Action screw tightness can also cause strange inconsistencies in accuracy.

Your rest can also be a source of changing POI. Holding the rifle differently will also change POI, though this is only noticeable on an accurate rifle.

There have been more than a few times when I left the range completely frustrated - nothing I did made sense, and the bullets just didn't go where I expected them to go. Looks like you had one of these days.

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I had a problem with incosistency once due to not having the parallax adjusted correctly on a scope. When I moved my eye around while looking through the eyepiece, the crosshairs moved around as well. I learned an important lesson that day after wasting 50 rounds of carefully prepared reloads.

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Thanks guys, I appreciate the info. I'll be trying out your suggestions as soon as I can. One thing to add is that I noticed that the holes in the stock do not line up well with the holes in the receiver. I'm beginning to wonder if there are issues with the stock being torqued out of whack. It has a pressure point near the front (two "dots") that apply pressure to the barrel for better accuracy. I'm thinking the odd stock torque may be an issue. Also, I've seen people recommend that you take some of the hollowed out areas of the stock and fill them in with epoxy to stiffen the stock up since its not entirely rigid. Anyway, thanks again guys.
lw

Sighting in

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Hi Guys,
It's been years since I've posted here. I have question. If I sight my rifle in at 70', how high will it be at 100'? The rifle is a 722 Remington 222. I'm using 21.5 gr. of H322 pushing a 50gr. V-Maxx. That should be around 3000ft. per second. This load is making one hole at 70'. 5 Shot groups.
Thanks, Martin

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A critical piece of information is how far the sights are over the bore.

I'd also like to verify that you are asking about 70 and 100 feet, not 70 and 100 yards as your sight-in distance.

On edit:
With a sight height of 2.0", a zero at 70 yards, plus the info you give above, the bullet will hit about 0.17" high at 100 yards.

A sight height of 1.5 inches will change the point of impact to 0.04" low at 100 yards.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

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The distance was 70yrds. Thanks for the site.
Martin

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I found another online calculator, this one gives drop in minutes also. That way I can zero at 100, reset my turrets, and dial in the minutes I want for the shot.

With a good range finder this results in a dead on hold no matter what.

I edit out the unwanted stuff, and print a drop chart to put in my ammo box lid. Sweet!

HM

http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/ballistics/traj_b....ic.html

A New Sport

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Alright Folks
I think I may have invented a new sport..I call it Grackle Wakkin..we have several new large dairy barns here in the Hoosier,,with them came a small{robin sized}black bird that I have been told is a grackle,,well Sirs you set up in camo at about 75 yards with a 17 hmr and make a little black puff ball..awesome
Go Git Er Done

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Thats similar to a favorite activity of mine. We shoot starlings on my buddie's dairy farm. go buy a case of shotshells and shoot them out of the air until they get smart enough to stay out of shotgun range.....then we break out the 17 HMR's hehe. Thousands of the greasy little buggers have fallen to this technique over the last 8 years.

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well I guess I didn't start a new sport after all,,hey we did figure something out though they make great catfish bait!!!!

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Huh, never woulda though of that! Haha at least they are useful for something.

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With summer wrapping up there is a lot of fruit falling of the trees and a fair amount is not edible. Cant waste "good" fruit so it ends up in a box and up to our favorite shooting area. Making applesauce at 3000+ fps. Gotta love it.

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You are such a good steward of your resources! And the Liberals (Leftists) think they are something special.

Theoretical Question

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OK so i was looking at a bunch of the pictures on here of the different explosive bullets you guys have been using. Personally i have been loading 40 grain noslers in the 22-250AI with great results on vermin. This got me to wondering what would happen were I to load a FMJ bullet at a moderately fast velocity say 3500 or so. It would be interesting to see how many bputs you could shoot through. So heres the question, how many could you shoot through (provided they lined up for you) with out the bullet yawing so severly as to throw the bulet off its path? might be interesting to test on pigeons along the ridge of a barn. they DO line up for you.

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I presume ur question is retorical as there are too many variables. My expertise is limited having studied high/low velocity impact wounds with one of world's preeminent Pathologists from Northern Ireland. Realistically I would use ballistic gelatin under Lab conditions to determine an average penetration depth. Around 55 gr FMJ @ 3500 fps thru any target medium would begin to yaw unless somehow u could create a vacuum (space). Having seen many wounds (including FMJs) including Temporary Cavitations, I cannot visualize anything other than Tungsten Carbide and/or depleted uranium coming anywhere near absolute straight line penetration (unless of course one has Superman in his corner). Saw xray of IRA Vic after they switched to Stoner System (5.56) from their old FNs (7.62). The FMJ hit the hip, then traversed body to opposite shoulder, then straight across to the other shoulder and then diagonally downward to the opposite hip where the projectile was recovered at autopsy. I guess we'll have to wait to see if the Swiss and French create the black hole to ascertain the answer to this one.

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Did you see Myth Busters on shooting into water? They shot full metal jacketed bullets into a swimming pool. If I remember right the bullet traveled about three feet and came completely apart. The bald headed guy said they were firing armor piercing rounds. That round would not come apart. Kind of shows what they know....lol..
Martin

Heart City update

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Well the Pepper Mill is now Ceder Creek something or other, same food but cost more ($6.00 bottle of wine only $18.00 what a deal). Trade Winds Motel $69.00 a night and remodled rooms are nice. Rosebud bputs, more than enough to shoot at. The poisoned holes just got new tenants!!! We shot on Deeded gruond and never saw anyone but the rancher and his wife, their dog and lots of pds. 204's a blazen till the ammo run out then to the 22-250s and the best shots I had were the Bushmaster Var. with 60 gr. V max. What a blast those are (get it, BLAST). The only bad moment was the part of my buddy leaving the town of Springview Ne. The sheriff sits down in the road ditch and waits for those who want to leave town in a hurry. Nice guy though, he asked if we were there to go fishin (with a truck full of gun cases?)LOL Good times.

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Are you referring to the Pepper Mill in Valentine, NB?

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Yes sir.

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Huh....
I recall they served good steaks.

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I know they have a great sirloin but we got there at 4:00 and were going back out to shoot that evening and didn't want to get to fat. They use to have bottles of their own seasoning salt on the tables but that's gone now too. The club sandwich is a good choice too, I took 1/2 out to eat later.

Pass Shooting Coyotes?

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Hi Amigos, I have called coyotes and shot them. I have shot coyotes with big game caliber rifles while hunting deer and antelope. I recently saw a video about a guy who supposedly shoots coyotes by just sitting in camo. at high points in likely territory and waiting for them to run by. HAVE ANY OF YOU SHOT COYOTES LIKE THIS? The fellow says he gets up before first light and walks into the desired point of observation then waits as motionless as possible for the doggies to run within rifle range. He also, matter-of-factly, states he nails coyotes with his .22-250 on the trot or fast walk at distances of up to 400 yards. The moving target at 400 yards leads me to believe this is whole deal is not exactly true. Anyone out there do this type of hunting? NO calls, just camo. and early morning light. I would like to try it if it works?!!

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BTDT evening too in deer season. Had some pass within 20 meters. Made my own winter fleece camo. Don't much see need for full Ghillie gear in North America unless u r trying to sneak and peek at two legged game. Once close enough to whack a cow elk on snout with muzzle of rifle before she backed off. Don't worry too much about scent if you stay low and slow.

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I talked to a state coyote control guy one time. This is pretty much the way he said he hunted coyotes here in New Mexico.

Moving targets at 400 yards isn't out of the bounds of reality. If you're practiced (lots of practice), it's reasonable to be proficient out to 400 yards. Specializing on a single species would give you a real advantage for gaging distances and speeds....

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With practice, hitting a moving coyote at 400 yards is not unreasonable - much like hitting a smaller prairie rat at 400 yards is not too tough.

Many years ago, Rick Jamison wrote Calling Coyotes.... In it, he describes shooting coyotes on the run with success. He was making a living doing this at the time - I guess it was before the market on hides went down.

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Aside from shooting p-dogs, what finally helped me the most at the 400+ yd yote shots was learning to watch, judge direction, speed, and distance through the scope for a couple of seconds before "seeing" the reticle. I don't know if that makes sense or not, but (I think) it goes back to the old Army addage- "Think long- think wrong". If you're used to the long shot on pasture poodles and you're cozy with your glass and rifle- then it's quite do-able. Of course here on the high plains of the Tx Panhandle, we don't have all those pesky trees and hills to get in the way of things :(

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375 yards at a trot is my best. It wasn't pretty though, a follow up was needed to dispatch said dog. 220 on a dead run (dead,get it) was much more of a challenge.

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1/4 mile part of a section is 440 yards! On clear sections, Coy-dogs run the fencelines.

My most amazingly luckiest shot in my life was on an, (ears laid straight back,) (tail straight out,) (two Walker dogs runnin the SOB!) .243 80 BT's and about a body and 3/4 length lead and he hit his nose so hard on the ground, flipped once through the snow, and I thought I missed! Wrong!!!

Chest swell followed when some of the boys saw that one!! Somtimes every dog has his day!

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Speaking of yotes and such critters... I just got back from a trip down to the areas of Cuauhtemoc, La Junta, and Creel Mexico. I noticed a serious lack of tracks and signs of many wild critters at all, except dove. Man, I'd like to get in on one of those Mexican dove hunts! But I guess that's a rich man's sport down there and taking firearms down there seems to be a huge friggin "NO-NO".

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Mexico is a wild place. There is a thin veneer of civilization that once you get away from the tourist areas you are at a pretty big risk. The gov. is corrupt as can be, drug lords run entire areas, and the Mexican army actually crosses the border into America and has had fire fights with our border patrol, or some such nonsense. I don't care what some people say, I'll stick with the good ol' USA and our bro Canada up North. If the libs think this is such a bad place I think they should go live somewhere else a while. I remember a story where two couples were on vacation in Mexico and they ignored the locals and decided to go horseback riding in the hills near a major tourist town. They encountered banditos, who took Everything they had except the horses. The couple came strolling back into town naked as jay birds and much wiser.

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Mex is only place in world I got a knife stuck in my neck once close to 40 yrs ago. I was liasising with BNDD (forerunner to ur DEA) and when dealing with the Federales, only homicides I saw were long haired leaping gnome types (gringos) that were looking for smoking dope. Some of most horrendous mutilations I have ever seen were just south of Nogales Another Canuck Federale was murdered down there when on "vacation"....they claimed he committed suicide by jumping off his balcony. Autopsy (Canadian ME)indicated he was repeatedly stuck with truncheons. Several yrs ago another former colleague that had retired from his Forensic Lab and was deadheading it in Baja when he and his wife were beaten and left for dead. They lost their truck, camper and dog. Both were beaten so badly they were medevac'd back to Canada. Both have had to have numerous reconstructive surgeries and today look like different people. We were not supposed to armed when seconded on these missions, but now days in several Central American countries, a polite host offers you a choice of weapon when disembarking.

Get outta here!

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Any body doing any actual shooting or hunting? Getting out of the house and away from the bench or reloading table? With the coming of the wetter monsoon season here in the Southwest the coyotes seem to be coming to the calls better. Also a quick trip to Wyoming netted a couple good days on the prairie dog towns. P'dog towns in West Texas and New Mexico were so dry this year the inhabitants didn't seem to have near as many pups as in years past. Didn't seem to have that problem farther North. Just couldn't stand staying in the house or garage any longer...had to get out and try the 22-250 (my first) on everything. Primarily bought for coyotes, also does an admirable job(!) on p'dogs. Good Hunting!

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The only thing I have done is punch holes in paper at 100 yards with a 22 LR. Just cant get up for anything else.

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Headed to Heart city (Rosebud) in 2 weeks and way over do for it. Got a line on a bput town or two in Neb. thats on the way we just hope its worth the stop.

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I'm days away from a third child so I'm frantically trying to get my remodel up to a reasonable point. However, I moved into a newly completed room last night and I moved the loading bench in as the very first thing. Got my priorities right, I think:-) I suspect that some of the time I take off after the baby is born will involve loading. Who am I kidding, all my spare time will be loading. My boys want to shoot my bow and go elk hunting with me (They are only four but still it makes the old man proud:-) ). My buddies and I want to get out soon but we are having to do it different this year since one of them has Lymphoma. This cancer thing is starting to get depressing. Last year one of my buddies' wife got cancer, my dad died of it, now my other buddy has it, and a couple hours ago I attended a funeral for a friend that died from it, and the list goes on. If anyone wants to offer a prayer there's a bunch of people who would appreciate it. Thanks.

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You got one, Hang in there. Things WILL get better!

Critr? Tell me you've been annealing everything you own by now! Sorry I didn't give you any more info on your e-mail but I can only control what my hands are on.

I've kind of figured it out how I like it to work and I think anybody who does this should also! Did you end up doing the tempilsticks for checks, or crush neck method? I personally thought 850 degree sticks were to hot! I used 650 and still got (crushes) on the necks right where they should be.

Good luck on the Bud! Kill em all!!! I'm going to do my second go round, end of August! New stuff around Winner!

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Up an' runnin. I think we did 400 .204's in about 20 minutes. It moves right along. The tempilsticks are 650 and 750, get the 650 to melt but not the 750. We just pinch em in our digets at the neck and they feel springy (springy?) and go by the color as the manul said. Only 14 more days to blast off.

Anyone wanna REALLY piss off the liberals?

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A "new" varmint, long believed to be extinct for millions of years, has shockingly reappeared in Laos much to the delight of scientists and people who get a kick out of little furry rodents. It's ultra rare and endangered, obviously.

Can you imagine the blood-curdling shrieks of rage from the libs if someone, not knowing what they were aiming at, hit it with a crack shot from a 22-250 and took this little rat out?

Heh heh

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060309/ap_on_sc....urvivor

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do you have to have a non-residence license...

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Looks like the perfect target for the .17 Mach2 cartridge. What do you think?

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Nah - .50 BMG.

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Nice fur, it would make a cool custom scope cover.

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will it respond to a call.

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Not sure. But I can guarentee it will respond to a 50gr V-Max.

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The last time that I was in that part of the world, I didn't need a license!But then again we were shooting a different kind of varmint
1966 ;>)

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there was another rodent that came form that part of the country a few years back.He moved to Illinois to get votes.Everytime I write or say something about this rodent bas--rd, I get bad e-mail and sour looks.Its a little to late to criticize this vermin bas--rd from that part of the world. actually he was born in hawaii. his step-father or what ever moved this bas--rd to indonesia and put him in a mooslum school so he could learn to hate americans.I know why this mooslum bastard would like to be president of the greatest country ever.He wants us all to "CHANGE". I can change allright, but these mooslums ain't gonna change me.it might be to late to do anything about this half-breed illigitimate mooslum bas-ard, other than not voting for him. maybe this country needs to 'CHANGE'.Maybe we had better wake up.Maybe be better make sure we have lots of ammo hidden away. Maybe we better change and be alert to this mooslum bastard,and wotch him ruin us all.

http://send this to all decent Americans

Heller Decision (off topic)

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Because todays SCOTUS decision is a significant historic event, I'm moving off-topic a bit...

The US Supreme Court has given a decision on the DC Handgun ban, and affirmed that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right.

I find it disturbing that this has even been in question. There is no such thing as a collective right, or states' rights, or the concept that government has any rights at all. The Constitution never refers to, and never conveys rights to, any part of government at any level. Government entities are either prevented from exercising power, or that power is specifically delegated to it.

- All rights are individual in nature.
- People (individuals) have Rights, Power, and Authority.
- People delegate some of their power and authority to government so it may function.
- Rights, like responsibility, cannot be delegated

Today is a good day for freedom and liberty.

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What's sad is it passed by a 5 to 4 vote.

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Wins a Win! That beats a loss in my book anyday! I just hope NOBODY gets too relaxed!

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As liberal politicos become more and more detached from their constituants (not to mention resposibility and liability) and the fine little gray line between their agendas and Marxism gets smaller and fainter- I can actually see why it had to come down to DC elitist chambers for settlement. Polititians no longer think 'we the people' are smart enough or in way capable of wiping our own collective hineys, and states are only slightly better off. I think it's long been the Demo's agenda to make 'we the people' physically and mentally dependant on big brother. The peasants and good subjects can't rise up and revolt if they are devoid of any sense of independence and free thought. When will religion come under fire again? Who else took hope, peace, solace, and salvation away from the peasantry? "Place all hope, faith, and dependence in the government and you will find your utopia (even if by force)" Gosh wouldn't Marx, Stalin, Mao, and the like be proud of our Dems?

Didn't they say that the 2nd hasn't been visited since 1932? Exactly what was that? Anyway, somebody hand Feinstein, Pilosi, Brady, and Kenedy a hankey- they must certainly be most distraught. On second thought, scr@# 'em- Let them get their own.

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Exceptionally well put Huffmo!! Have you ever considered taking office? :),
Jerry

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Huffmo for President!!!

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The part that REALLY bothers me the most is how the second amendment is currently being described in the courtroom, even by hunters and sportsmen who have forgotten their true heritage and it's original intent.

The second amendment was NEVER about hunting and sports, and NONE of us should ever forget that. The sad fact is that we HAVE forgotten. Hunting and sports are merely a secondary pastime you can engage in with firearms that are otherwise weapons of war.

The second ammendment is now - and has always been - about the people of this nation to be better armed than our own military so we can keep our military "well regulated". Why? Because that's what's necessary to maintain a "free state". The only way to ensure a government doesn't go dictatorial is an armed citizenry that has the capability of overpowering it's own military/government if needed, something our founding fathers knew with firsthand experience because that'ws what happened to them.

I repeat: the purpose of the second amendment is so civilians will always be more powerful than their own government. This is what is meant by our militia (military) being "well regulated". Hunting/sports has nothing to do with it.

Thomas Jefferson didn't like the idea of a standing army because Britain (which was our own government at the time) was in the habit of using it's military against it's own people to keep them in line. That's why the American citizen is armed - to keep our own government in fear of it's own people so that never happens again.

Now read this again with new eyes and understanding:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

See anything about hunting or sports in there?

It's fun to fart around with these otherwise useless little rodent poppers, but hopefully that that .17 is sitting next to an AR-15 in that gun cabinet.

Get your gun books at the Shooters' Bookshelf

varmint hunting, prairie dogs, coyotes, shooting, rifles, long range shooting

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