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Seekers of the Red Mist
(Varmint Hunting Discussion)

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Barrel replacement

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We have an old Mossberg 800 rifle, 22-250. The barrel is shot out and we need to know the best way to go about getting a replacement. THX

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Give E.R.Shaw a try. They are located in SW PA and I have seen their work personally. http://www.ershawbarrels.com/normal.asp They should be able to fit your rifle with a new barrel of any length/contour etc.

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Thank God for our Boxing Day and the attendant bargains, otherwise wouldn't have been able to find replacements for those undersized Arnie Palmer slippers made by the Chicoms!

Apparently in mainland China I have huge feet! I must express surprise that Arnie lent his name...but I suppose they're selling better than any "Tiger" endorsed product!

Learned a new word the other day that is apparently uniquely American...."Prexy" which is a short form for your President...just goes to show yah that one never stops learning useless bits of trivia by doing crosswords.

I may not make much sense for next undetermined period of time...eleven minutes ago the World Junior Hockey tourney started....TTFN (Brit translation: Ta Ta For Now)

A neighbour came over prior to me entering this msg for some seasonal cheer. By the time he left the game not even half over and we're winning 8-0 against Latvia!

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Apologies....somehow I got lost with my computer running and the door bell ringing and the a/b msg entered wrong spot!

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Give Dan Lilja at http://www.riflebarrels.com/ a call. I'm sure he can fix you up nicely. Definitely worth a look.
lw

Texas hog hunt

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Here is some video of hunting hogs from a helicopter in Texas,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiHmYsyVniE

Cool Video

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Found this link to some great super slow motion video of bullets impacting steel and other objects. Really good stuff! Shows some bullet spin after impact as discussed on the other thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrQZ89ba ... _embedded#

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Thinking of these brings to mind some Hollywood screw-ups that I've noted over the years.
1. Smallville - There’s an episode where Clark's father is under some strange influence and goes to shoot Clark with a 30-30. So there's this nice slo-mo shot of the bullet leaving the barrel, flames and gases and all, then spins as it moves toward Clark, who of course handles it. But the Hollywood folks apparently don't know that lever action firearms don't typically shoot SPITZER bullets (before Hornady introduced the soft tips anyway).
2. CSI Miami - Sniper episode. Some dude was shooting people from the tops of skyscrapers. They made this real big deal about how precise he was when he practiced, down to the minute details. They found where he practiced in a gravel quarry. The problem was he had all these nice high piles of gravel to practice with steep angle shots etc and all he was doing was sticking a target on a gravel pile and shooting. Oh yes, this guy covered every last detail.
The list goes on. Gotta love Hollywood. You would think they would bring in a technical advisor more often.

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Not only in H'wood does "stuff" happen. Saw vid of someone shooting 50BMG rd in pit estimated hundreds of meters away. Ricochet came back and took his hat off. Another vid of possibly my eastern national bretheren using two metallic chairs as seat and rest; ricochet drew blood that time, but fortunately not fatal. I cannot repeat the cussing in French heard on the vid!

I shud talk, once just prior to elk trip, a quick turn-around court case caught us un prep'd. To expedite the necessity to prove the seized CFR was indeed capable of firing projectile faster than minimum specifications of our Criminal Code to qualify as a firearm,I took my subordinate to the range and had him fire several of the seized weapons.

I did not anticipate his almost total lack of accuracy and was down to last round when we approached too close (about 25M). He totally missed the target, striking something hard. The ensuing 150 gr FMJ ricochet trimmed us both.

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Yikes. Close one. I remember when I was a kid we had a bunch of cast bullets loaded for our 30-30. We used to love to shoot them because they would almost always ricochet. It sounded like one of the old western movies. Luckily we were shooting in a valley on our property where things were safe and we were not too close.
As for the 50BMG vid, I think I've seen it. Seems to me on the return trip the bullet hit the ground about 20 feet in front of the guy and skipped up and hit him in the head. Bet he's real cautious how he shoots now.

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That refreshed my memory too, I think it is the same vid. During a Forensic Pathology Course conducted by our Attorney General in Ontario, we studied difference between High/Low vel GSWs. HiVel has a phenomenon known as Temporary Cavitation. Without digging up my old notes, I do recall that soft skin targets (humans) may have a big around a 12 inch hole drilled at entry that slams shut, hence the TC. I don't recall projectile spinning much after impact, but by judging by the autopsy photos, that subject seemed moot.

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Oh boy. Just watched CSI Miami again. Saw a nice special affect of a bullet in flight again. I learned a lot too. It appears that you can shoot a what looks like a 180gr spitzer from a 9mil or 45 (didn't pay much attention to what pistol they were using). Don't they have any pictures of pistol bullets for their special affects dept? Dang.

Bullet spin question?

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I wasn't exactly sure where to put this since it isn't quite reloading. I was sitting at my buddies table this morning talking about reloading and various bullets as we often do. I was just finishing my coffee when I suddenly looked at him and asked "How far do you think a bullet maintains it's "spin" into an animal?" I mean obviously there are variations due to range, bullet, animal, shot placement blah blah blah blah......but generally...do you think it spins all the way through? stop almost immediately? Or somewhere in the middle (you know lungs, heart etc) Not a super important question...just curious what you guys think

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Interesting question. I'm no physicist, but I would think the spin would stop as soon as the bullet starts to mushroom. On a FMJ, I think it would be possible to spin all the way through unless it hit bone.

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Looking at images of different bullets going through ballistic gelatin, you can often see evidence of bullet spin well into the target.

This is most apparent in hollow-point pistol bullets and soft point rifle bullets. The petals of the expanding bullet leave tracks.

FMJ bullets do not leave tracks in the gelatin blocks; they don't have much hanging out there to leave tracks. These bullets will yaw and tumble rather than expand. I bet these bullets retain their spin, they just don't show it well in ballistic gelatin.

FIRST PRARIE DOG TRIP...Thinking South Dakota, maybe near the Badlands Natl. Park...THOUGHTS? ADVICE?

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Hey guys...

I posted once about a year ago. I am a totaly noobie from Dallas when it come to prarie dog hunting. Went once in the TX panhandle and had an amazing time. I can't imagine how great it would be to go somewhere where the prarie dogs are really active and populous.

Basically, I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction as to where the best prarie dog hunting would be. We will really go wherever the best hunting would be, whatever state that may be. Also, what is the best time of year to go? I have seen several ranches in South Dakota that offer a flat day rate for hunting. We liked the sound of that so we could also spend a day at Badlands Natl Park...

Any advice and words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

ET

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ET...Welcome & as a "noobie" myself let me just warren you to be ready to get the cold shoulder on this one....I asked the same question about 6 months ago & was basically told to do my own home work! I found out that nobody wants to give up their "honey holes." I guess that I can sympathize with them a little bit. I mean if somebody asked me were they stood the best chance to shoot a trophy buck I sure wouldn't tell them were I consistently shot mine...LOL...But in all honesty were talking about rats here. So I don't see what the big deal is.

I did some looking around on-line and came up with the same stuff you did about S.D. I guess I'll just have to pay my money & take my chances too.

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One issue you will have is the ever changing nature of good spots. Much like favorite fishing holes, people aren't willing to give them up easily. In addition, dog towns tend to get hit with plague, ranchers will or won't allow hunting based on who knows what criteria, etc. I know one cantankerous drunken fossil that from one minute to the next you would be told "Sure, do whatever." and the next "Get the hell out of here.". So, even when people do have good spots they might not be valid one year from the next. What is probably most realistic is to ask for advice for how to find spots in a particular area. Its a gamble to travel hundreds of miles to show up in a town to ask ranchers at the local cafe if you can hunt but thats often how its done. I know there are quite a few dog towns in SD, Malta MT area and Miles City MT area. I'm thinking of looking into some of the local farm/ranch organizations and see if I can come up with some contact info so I can do some cold calling. I figure its worth a little phone/computer effort before showing up at a cafe. Anyway, good luck, hope you find many target rich environments. When you do go, just be sure to be prepared. I've been caught in rain, rattle snake heaven (now if its snakes you want I will happily tell you places to hunt buzztails), cactusville, etc. Pays to take what you need.

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I had some fun shooting PD's on my recent trip to Wyoming. I was there for antelope and mule deer and was pleasantly suprized to find a fair amount of PD's, along with coyotes. There is plenty of BLM (public land) to hunt, but a map to find exactly where these are is needed. I was hunting just south of Casper near the town of Alcova. The dogs were there in some areas but not everywhere. I pretty much came across where the were by chance while looking for antelope in the prairies. I didn't see the "towns" of hundreds of critters, but there were plenty of them scattered out in the areas I found them. I must warn you, this is very addictive and you will need lots of ammo! Hope you find somewhere to hunt. Good luck in your search.

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For a first-time prairie rat hunt I would consider the Rosebud Indian Reservation. They require that you hire a guide, and they have their own license.

Having a guide will get you on PDs immediately rather than spending a day or two scouting places. While I have not been there in several years, the Rosebud has had some excellent PD shooting.

http://www.tradecorridor.com/rosebud/accom.htm

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OK panhandle around Keyes,,but you have to talk to the ranchers,,southwest kansas just above OK pan..again ranchers,,good luck

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I am probably the "old grouch" mentioned in the second post. Yes, you have to do your own homework because everything changes, year by year or sooner.
   P'dogs are the tree squirrels of the grasslands. Mexico to Canada. Missouri River west. No trees so they live in holes in the ground likes rats and mice their cousins.
   You might find interesting the article in Scientific American about the 12 inch gerbils of Asia. Plague there too so they have been insecticiding the burrows for the fleas that carry it. Trying it with p'dogs too.
South Dakota markets. Rosebud Indian [they prefer Native American, and Lakota to Sioux...] Reservation (Rez), south center. Standing Rock, north center. Lower Brule in the center. Pine Ridge Rez would be closest to Badlands Nat. Park. SW corner of state, Buffalo Gap Nat. Grasslands. Public land free to anyone who cares to shoot. Google for latest rules.
   There is an organization, Varmint Hunters Assoc., varminthunter.org with magazine, parties, competitions... Pierre South Dakota. Good local resource. Not free, but... your call.
   BEWARE!!! There is plague in the furballs. Transmitted by fleas. PART II). The plague is a threat to black footed ferrets which were almost extinct. There are NO SHOOT areas to protect the ferrets who only want to eat p'dogs. This is Fed reg. You violate and you will be most unhappy. Thus the advice to communicate with local authorities, government hunter/trapper; extension, etc. Take nothing for granted or you may have time to regret in striped sunshine.

As suggested,the closest to you would be the sw corner of KS. Cimmaron Nat. Grassland. Again, public land. Law require management for multiple use and includes hunting. And in the area you will probably find farmers/ranchers who will welcome you with open arms. It is like Orkin coming to your home to exterminate all your rats/mice for free. FREE.

I always peferred Wyo. Family near and no license required. Get away from the government offices and bunny huggers in Cheyenne and again, open arms welcome. Reportedly there was a p'dog town between Douglas and Newcastle that was 26 miles in diameter. But if closed for the weasel/rat/ferrets... Beware.

MOntana good. ND good. CO good away from Denver. Shooters I have talked with say that TX and OK have populations but it is pay to shoot. VHA was in OK. Might have advice. Please show your gratitude. Ham? Case of coke or three. The drink. Fruit basket? Not around broke back mountain... Please. Happy trails. Luck.

addendum

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Maybe you have heard the stories about government auctions... mainly true. They are not permitted money to advertise so if you show up, limited competition. And they do no "service" so you may buy a car with drugs still in the fenders or the spare... (No promises) etc.

Same with range rats. Now if you hit the state office of USDA (United States Department of Agriculture) you are likely to find a bunny hugger or boot licker to a bunny hugger and will they help you? Not only "no" but "HELL NO!" And you can bet they report this to the boss for all the brownie points they can collect! ["I told this crazy gun owning shooter to 'go to H___'"].

On the other hand, you get out in the field and find the ADCA (Animal Damage Control Agent) aka "government hunter/trapper" and guess what? Ask in the farm stores or diners... To them you is "FREE HELP." You ask them where you can find some pest to blast at and the attitude of the land owner... As a government agent, they don't need permission to go onto land and "damage control"... Most will send you to the most welcoming places... Like I said, be grateful, GRATEFUL, please, and make things good for the next fella...

From Dallas, if I planned to do much of this and it is ADDICTING!!! I would hit the ADCAs in SW KS and/or the chambers of commerce in the small towns. These folks are used to the pickups with a fishing rod and a gun hanging in the back window... You offer to rent a room at the motel and eat at the diner and buy gas and they get all "warm and fuzzy" and want to hug you. That is what boomers do. Luck.

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Still plenty of p dogs in SW Kansas. The towns move and shift, but numbers are ok. Might be as close as you'll find from Texas but would start looking in OK panhandle. Like mentioned before, start at the gas station and diners and ask who to talk to, then where to shoot. Lots of cattle out in that country so have to be careful and take note of the lay of the pastures. Often there are cattle just over top of hill that you may not see when blasting. Don't want to hit any beefs or you might be buying livestock on your trip! Good luck.

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My suggestion would be like that of others; do your homework. South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming and Colorado all have huntable populations of Prairie Dogs. Unless you want to use a guide, you will have to find these on your own. I would suggest contacting the local Chamber of Commerce, county extension service, local feed stores, Mayor's office, etc.

My son and I once hunted ground squirrels around Pinedale, Wyoming. I sold a backhoe bucket to a guy who had a ranch in that area and asked us if we wanted to come shoot squirrels, he called them rats. We shot 1500 rounds of .22lr in one day! That doesn't count the .223 and 22-250 rounds we shot. Talk about a target rich environment! And we didn't even put a dent in them. Not a lot of long range shooting however. And there were other ranchers who wanted us to shoot on their ground but we didn't have the time. So places can be found.

Best time for the squirrels is before the alfalfa gets grown up. Or right after they mow. Can't see them otherwise. Any irrigated land with alfalfa will have the squirrels. And they are devastating to the farmers. For p-dogs, middle of May to first part of June is great. The pups are out then so lots of targets. Or any time it's sunny and warm they will be out. They are sun worshipers.

I understand you can only hunt p-dogs on private land in Colorado. That's what I've heard any way. Someone else might know better. We saw lots on my last trip to Denver. We drove from Denver up into Cheyenne, Wyoming on business. Saw them almost on every farm we passed. No shooting for us though. Just a quick business trip to look at some property to develop.

Hope this helps a bit. Good luck.

Paul

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I live in Colorado and you can hunt on public land but there is a season. 15Aug thru the end of the year I think. Year round for private. There are a ton of them and most ranchers will gladly let you shoot. This time of year is great as there is a species of hawk that migrates down from Canada and winters in eastern Colorado. They eat the dead while you're shooting them, soo much fun.

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Since your coming up from up from Texas, Kansas and Colorado are a great first shot. A large chunk of southeastern Colorado is public land. Stop off in Springfield at the National Forest office, they manage the Comanche National Grass lands which are full of rats ripe for blasting. The Colorado Division of Wildlife has the season posted on there hunting page under small game so read up on that, you will need a small game license. The Forest service has all of the maps available and the land has a little sign on the gates with a number to identify the pasture and parcel. The land is fenced mostly on the section lines so you should be able to follow it on the maps. Kansas uses the same system for the land in the Cimmaron grass land.
If this sounds to much like work just go to Wyoming, from Chugwater up to Wheatland is all good with plenty of BLM and State land, the good part about Wyoming is there is no lisence or guide required. The area west of Laramie is good and the ranchers are very accomidating to rat blasters.
I have been to South Dakota and was very dissapointed at the cost associated with terminating vermine. It seems like they all want to clean out your wallet. It was not a great trip by any means.
So there is my opinion.
Have a great time where ever you go!

Whoo Hoo new toy!

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A couple weeks ago i ended up acquiring a lower for an AR-15. Well that is cool and all but it wont kill many critters. So the search for an upper began.First i thought 223 varmint upper, couldnt find one i wanted that was in stock, so then i saw one in 6mm ppc, really cool super accurate...and not in stock. Well Long story short i was on Midway USA and saw that they had a really cool upper in stock....in 50 Beowulf. Couldn't resist, bought it....came in 2 days instead of 2 months. Cant wait to thump a deer with it this fall!

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I have a buddy who has that same rig. He took it on a bput hunt with us and to say the least it was a bit of a over kill. Not much for the mist but you talk about move'n em off the hill, them dogs were a flinging through the air. He had a load that used .50 cal Powerbelts that were straight shooters.

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Im waiting on ammo at the moment. I'll probably miss deer season this year but if i can smoke a coyote with it this fall/ winter i will try to post pix!

What caliber should i get

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I have a good selection of rifles up to 308 and 7mm wsm then nothing untilmy 50 bmg. im looking for something in between. 300 pegasus has kinda cought my eye. but i would appreciate some other suggestions. thanks

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The .338 Lapua is very impressive. You might want to check it out.

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.338 Lapua.... that's what came to mind also.

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Hmm yeah 338 lapua is a nice cartridge....perhaps i will look closer at that

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You might also look at the .416 Barrett and the .408 CheyTac. Not sure if they are available from anyone but Barrett or CheyTac, but they are two very interesting new rounds.

Paul

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Has anyone taken a moment to dig through the videos at the Cheytac site? Man, if a guy had the money to toss around... WOW!

They don't makes them things in V-Max, do they?

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I can't afford the ammo! I think our buck is worth about 97 of ur cents now, but even then, it is horrendously expensive beyond the 49th parallel.

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That's a sweet system.

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I saw a show called "Futureweapons" where they put the CheyTac to the test. It was a one shot hit at over 2000yds. if I remember correctly. That is one sweeeet rig. Perfect for shooting groundhogs at obscene distances. :)

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Yeah like the next state over....you could go check the mail while you wait for the bullet to hit haha

For anyone on Facebook who's interested

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I created a "fan page" on Facebook if any of you guys are interested in that kind of thing:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Seekers-of-the....7044296

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Only the one photo?

Anyone know a good place to shoot in Washington, btw? State, that is. I'm up here for the time being.

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What you doing in WA? What part?

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Tryin to find a job. I'm outside of Seattle. There are a lot of Priuses here. Pretty, tho.

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Beautiful area - you've got the ocean, mountains, decent temps year-round....

I hear that there are varmints (ground squirrels) to the east - get up & over the mountains and into the high plains. Never shot there, though.

Good luck -w- the job hunt!

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What do you do? If you are a tech dude I can keep an eye open for you.
There are a lot of enviro-radicals, anti-gun types (Seattle's mayer, and ex-police cheif, etc), and other unsavory types out here. Bummer.
On the bright side the WAC (Washington Arms Collectors) is a good group with good gun shows etc each month. The climate is good but if it snows stay off the roads since the drivers have absolutely no idea how to drive in the sun let alone the snow.
As for critters, heading East is your best bet. You can find yotes, and ground squirrels fairly easy. The downside is when you are near the East side of the mountains the wind is pretty bad. There are cougar, bear, turkeys and other game if you are into big game hunting as well.
Good luck.

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I can do Unix OP and NOC stuff.

The climate reminds me of Ireland.

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Got it. I'll keep an eye out. I believe Google (Kirkland) is a big linux shop. Might want to check them out. I've heard they are a bit strange but who knows. With MS around its mostly a windows area but there is definitely *nix around. Some shops like Boeing etc have a variety of platforms I believe. Good luck.

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Only one image -- a broken SRM logo... which I can finally fix. Feel free to fill it up.

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Just joined up as a friend on the Facebook page.

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I replaced the Google badge on the right with a Facebook badge since there was so much more interest in the FB group. The "Jody" you see in the photos, that's me, "havoc."

Nationalized Health Care

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What do you guys north of the 49th think of your health care system? As you know, NoBama is trying to push national health care here in the US and I want to hear first hand what the pros and cons are of such a system. I hear all the spin, for and against, and just want to know the truth.

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Tommy Douglas, the Grandfather of Kiefer Sutherland the alcoholic son of Donald and current star of "24", I think they used to call his Political Party the CCF (pretty close to CCCP, if you follow my drift) that later turned into the NDP, was the big push that brought blanket med coverage to Canada.

It was all good while I worked for the Fed Gov't but now that I've retired and am in need of a new knee.... I hurt my knee last Nov hunting and it slowly healed until June when it "blew a piston". I am still waiting to see an Orthopedic Surgeon in December (after White Tail season). Generally speaking I think it a good deal for us Canucks, but I think ur Hawaiin born leader wants a blend of our system and the Brit system. I'm no socialist but I think blanket medical coverage is a methodology for stabilizing a progressive society.

I'm an old fart, so what do I know because I'm still for lining up murderers against the wall and flinging .... well you know the rest.

Unfortunately with old age comes cynicism, but up here we pay a fraction of what u guys pay for meds. A friend of mine had a lung replacement and his meds would have cost more than ten grand a month. You put up that cost against the average family income. I think they take about twenty bucks a month off my pension cheques (note the Canuck spell of "checks") for my Medical coverage since I retired. I used to have all Med/Dental "Buckshee" (free) when I was a Fed Fuzz.

ADDENDUM: I cannot remember what the CCF party meant, maybe it was Canadian Commonwealth Federation, but it morphed into the present day NDP which is the New Democratic Party (our left wing socialists). I alluded to the CCF being close to the CCCP which is in the Cyrilic alphabet for the USSR.

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Here's a link to an interesting, and hilarious, rant on this and other issues our wonderful leader is imposing on us Americans. http://la-gun.com/manning/
Just click on the video at the bottom left of the page.

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I have spent some time in Ireland(HSE) and England(NHS), amongst other socialized health countries. Much of the 'scare tactics' that are being flung around are basically true. and ALL of the socialized health countries have a private health option(and no one with any real money will go to the public option willingly - especially when 'private firms' often get state grants and are relatively affordable). When in Ireland, I had the option of going to a private clinic for a check up for 120 Euro, or to the HSE for 60 Euro. I went to the clinic and received excellent care. Here is a small sampling of articles in the 3 major news agencies(the BBC is partially state owned due to virtue of receiving tax dollars for roughly half of it's operations):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews....ay.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalf....re.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8223710.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews....ed.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_st....259.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews....HS.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews....ed.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_st....637.ece

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews....gs.html

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I guess since you guys do not play much hockey down there, you don't need a Gov't subsidy to pay for dental repairs and stitching. Money talks and the thing that worries me is that with the rampant illegal immigrant problem and the current state of the world economy, who is going to pay for universal health care?

Things have changed over the last century when the French lady with the beacon that currently sits in NJ waters welcomed the unwashed hoards to Ellis Island.

Up here we recently documented an immigrant woman that had eleven children. I do not know how many born in Canada, but she has been on Welfare continually since shortly after her arrival. Even thought my health care was provided "free" I had to pay max EI (Employment Insurance)and Health deductions even though I could never claim it. Over the years my "deductions" paid for what I call "slackers". I fully support providing asst to those who need it, but for a limited time.

We used to have a Law up here called the "Bitch" (Habitual Criminal)when after three onvictions for Indictable (ur Felonies) Offences, you were incarcerated for Life, but that was repealed about '73 I think.

The point I'm trying to make is one has to be careful about "creeping" socialism. They claim "It's all good." Over the course of my lifetime, I prefer to classify it as some good with a lot of bad. During my service I became aware of third and fourth generation people on Welfare.

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Thanks for the links Wyk. Those are real eye openers on what can happen with National Health Care. I'm sure it will be the same here, with the Govt. trying to save money whenever they can, even if it means letting people suffer and die prematurely. The Liverpool Pathway scares me. I can't imagine having a loved one being let to die because they aren't being watched for improvement in their condition or found not worthy of further treatment.

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I thought about the 'Liverpool Pathway' specifically when I started to hear talk about 'death panels' in our congress, and when Obama said it just wasn't going to happen. But this is just one particular example of what happens when the government gets to make decisions - you usually lose. In the case of the NHS, there ARE death panels. It makes sense, SOMEONE has to decide when to pull the plug, and since the Government runs the place... As it is here, you can make the decision yourself if you are insured or wealthy. Even if you are not insured you can threaten to sue and delay it for months or years. In England, you have absolutely no say at all regardless. And there are few private clinics that have the facilities to keep someone on life support in England that are even remotely affordable even with the subsidies.

Basically, if you consider the affordable clinics in America, the ONLY reason to pattern our health care after Europe is to help bolster the lower classes at the expense of the middle classes. In other words - more taxes for less services. In my experience in Europe(and I am headed back there in Feb or March), is that they are not only stuffed full of Socialists, but they have more than their share of communists. Bear in mind there is still a lot of backlash from WWII and Hitler and the Fascists. So, anything right wing is verboten to most of their societies outside of Austria, Switzerland, Italy, and England.

The majority of Europeans are used to being poor, used to having the government cradle them, and used to having low expectations and aspirations, and think everyone else should be the same.

As it is, the tax on Brits that make over 150K Sterling is 50%. Sales tax STARTS at 17.5%. Many groceries are taxed, unlike in the US. And this does not include NHS, property, council taxes, pensions etc. I spoke to one guy whom was a performer whom stated, all considered, he was paying nearly 80% taxes during his heyday. What incentive is there to better oneself, then? More than half of everything you do and earn will go to your neighbors down the road in a government subsidized housing complex. Needless to say, many Brits have vacated Britain for the US, Spain, Italy, or France, among other places. Sad when France has more agreeable taxes than your home country does; speaks volumes on incompetence

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I forgot to note, buried in those URL's I posted is the cost of health care in Britain:

100 Billion British Sterling every year - roughly $170 Billion Dollars. And, that's for 60 million people, not 285 million as we have. It costs the average British tax payer over $3200/year. Keep in mind it is not free, it shows up as a separate tax from income tax similar to our social security taxes.

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All good info wyk. Thanks for posting the links and insight. Its hard to believe people can be behind this plan, especially when the cost is exposed. I think most of the people supporting it think everyone else will be paying for it, and for some demographics, they are right.

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http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news....60.html

Ireland

By Anita Guidera and Harry Walsh

Friday November 06 2009

A team of three orthopaedic consultants, with combined salaries of about €675,000, has virtually no work to do at a busy hospital.

Senior consultant surgeon Peter O'Rourke has revealed he and two colleagues were being paid to sit around doing nothing while operating theatres were lying empty at Letterkenny General Hospital, Co Donegal.

"The Government is paying me a large sum of money to sit around doing nothing," said the bored surgeon, who earns around €225,000 a year, almost eight times the average industrial wage.

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One more thing to look forward to with Obamacare.

.223 varmint bolt action

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I am going to purchase a .223 bolt action for targets and varmints. What are the boards recommendations? I am leaning toward either the Remington 700 or CZ varmint. I know that the CZ has a 9 twist barrel so I could use heavy bullets but do not know the 700 twist.

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Not sure of the Savage Tactical's twist rate, but mine is an absolute tack driver. It loves 52gr. Cust. Comps. for target and 55gr. B-Tips for ending the lives of groundhogs. It has a heavy barrel but is balanced nicely. I was shooting 5 shot groups at right over 1/2 MOA at 100 and 200yds. with the cust. comps. The only modification was a Rifle Basix 1-3lb. trigger (this was a pre-accu trigger Savage) set as low as I could safely set it.

Savage Tactical .223.JPG (851.7 kb)

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Hmm, brand recomendations. Well, I've owned 3 Remington 700, 2 Tikka T3, etc and I've also heard good things about the CZ and the Savages (I've shot the Savages but until I own one to run it through full paces I won't offer too much here).
With that being said, I'd say you can get good results with any of these. Please consider the Tikka. At first you think "Man it looks cheap.". But then after you shoot it you are thinking, "Not bad, not bad at all." As for the cheapness, that polycarbonate stock is tough stuff. It holds up nicely. The only actual downside is it is a mag only feed. The ejection port is too small to manually feed rounds into the chamber.
Another point would be, since you are planning on using 223 maybe you should consider an AR. There are some tack driving ARs out there. Since you specifically say bolt action I'm presuming you have ruled this out or perhaps even have a couple but anyway, its a thought.
Keep in mind there are a lot of brands and you will find people who advocate all of them. Look for sound advice from people who own the brands and see what the real pros/cons are (Hence I've offered my Tikka experiences. My remington 700s have done well too but I think you get all the performance but more value for the money from the Tikka).
I've come to appreciate the advice from this group, its generally been sound and mostly from good practical experience. Back in the days when the rage was "To moly or not to moly" I really started to value peoples experiences here and elsewhere. Good luck.
lw

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I have in the past or currently own tack-drivers of numerous manufacturers and am in process of slowly piecing together a .260 Rem after a considerable amount of consulting with various knowlegeable people. From my perspective the biggest bang for my buck was obtained by going the Savage route. Right off the bat, I saved some money should I choose to retain the Accu-Trig. I was once skeptical until experiencing five different rifles that ALL were remarkably accurate.

To wring out extreme accuracy one may spend a small fortune, however I cannot find anything on the current market to compare with the value I've obtained from Sav....and that comes from a guy who about a decade ago would have thought this type of anecdotal referrence would have been scatalogical in origin.

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I have a CZ in .223 and it's a really nice gun. Shoots great, nice blueing and real pretty wood, but setting the trigger is kind of a pain on quick follow ups (I sometimes get in a hurry). I have 3 Savage with the Accu and that's not a problem. They aren't as good looking but all shoot great and are alot cheaper. That leaves money left over for bi-pods,scope,sling,etc. Hmmm more to think about.

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Thanks for all the input. I will take a closer look at the Savage line. Unfortunately it looks like I will have to put this purchase on hold for awhile as I am running out of money this year and do not want to hit the IRA until after the first of the year. I do have a really nice 30-06 from my dad that is fun to shoot but it takes twice the $ to fuel it as it would the .223.

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